There’s Something About Transphobia
July 25, 2007
Wyoming (IN)Equality
July 26, 2007

Woman’s Space To Hate With Heart

Things I learn from the radical feminist blogosphere:

-” Male-to-female transsexuality/transgender is really about men’s rights. It has nothing to do with feminism. As such, as feminists, just as we oppose men’s rights, in general, we oppose this manifestation of men’s rights as well.”

– “Radical feminists are no more “transphobes” than we are “manhaters.” To allege that we are is to indulge in sexist, misogynist, anti-feminist propaganda.”

– ” Female-to-male transsexuals/transgendered persons are situated much differently than male-to-female transsexuals/transgendered persons. Transmen have not enjoyed male privilege for any of the years they lived as females and as women, and they never enjoy male privilege as men do. When radical feminists call out transpersons, we are calling them out on their sexism. This means that most of the time, we are calling out transwomen or trans-identified men, not transmen. ”

-“Male-to-female transsexuality/transgender is really about men’s rights. It has nothing to do with feminism. As such, as feminists, just as we oppose men’s rights, in general, we oppose this manifestation of men’s rights as well.”

-” Male to female transsexuals/transgendered persons have enjoyed male privilege, for all of the time that they have moved and lived in the world as males or continue to. To call them out for their sexism whenever we see it, find it, hear of it, know of it, are targeted by it, are impacted and affected by it is not “transphobic.” It is feminism.”

Apparently when Heart’s site visits go down, she needs to suck the life of transpeople, like a vampire sucks blood.  Bite, suck, repeat.

There are two rules in when engaging in honest debate:

1. reveal errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts
2. reveal errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic

That’s difficult to do, because there are no facts to reveal. It’s almost all dogma.  A commenter disagreed. I responded:

“Dogma:
1. a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative.
2. a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof

You have no empirical data to support your position, so it IS dogma. It’s a belief, based on an opinion, supported by faith.”

That’s it in a nutshell, for me. You can’t debate someone that brings only dogma. Belief isn’t debatable.

  • “There you go again.”

    (Now she’s channeling Reagan as well as Dolores Umbridge: schweet! But in a totally, TOTALLY nonauthoritarian, loving way…)

  • “There you go again.”

    (Now she’s channeling Reagan as well as Dolores Umbridge: schweet! But in a totally, TOTALLY nonauthoritarian, loving way…)

  • “There you go again.”

    (Now she’s channeling Reagan as well as Dolores Umbridge: schweet! But in a totally, TOTALLY nonauthoritarian, loving way…)

  • Hehehe.

    Of course she’s never [i]said[/i] it and would talk all around it (denying that she’s denied not saying it, kinda thing, like she did in response to Daisy’s clear and direct question), all the while making it clear in everything else she says on the topic that she considers transwomen to be men.

    Which is her prerogative, except that she then utters falsehoods, such as, every transwoman is therefore more privileged than any WBW. In her mind, we are all middle-aged white software developers who vote libertarian.

  • Hehehe.

    Of course she’s never [i]said[/i] it and would talk all around it (denying that she’s denied not saying it, kinda thing, like she did in response to Daisy’s clear and direct question), all the while making it clear in everything else she says on the topic that she considers transwomen to be men.

    Which is her prerogative, except that she then utters falsehoods, such as, every transwoman is therefore more privileged than any WBW. In her mind, we are all middle-aged white software developers who vote libertarian.

  • Sabrina, Daisy has her own blog she’s at; if you want to talk with her, she has a post up about this. (Theres a link at Amp’s post)

    Of course she’s never said trans*women are men! You are just being mean, why are you so mean? She has no power to do anything, not even edit your comments or ban you from her blog for disagreeing!

  • Sabrina, Daisy has her own blog she’s at; if you want to talk with her, she has a post up about this. (Theres a link at Amp’s post)

    Of course she’s never said trans*women are men! You are just being mean, why are you so mean? She has no power to do anything, not even edit your comments or ban you from her blog for disagreeing!

  • Ok, Heart says, in the comment thread,

    I do not make statements about who is and isn’t a woman.

    But, if that’s true, then who are the “men” whose rights transgender activism is about?

    Kudos to Daisy, if she ever sees this (no way in hell am i posting over there).

  • Ok, Heart says, in the comment thread,

    I do not make statements about who is and isn’t a woman.

    But, if that’s true, then who are the “men” whose rights transgender activism is about?

    Kudos to Daisy, if she ever sees this (no way in hell am i posting over there).

  • “Heart’s whole thing about love strongly reminds me of conservative Christians. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” anyone?”

    The best thing I’ve ever read about radical pathologies is
    here
    . I think it fits Heart and Co to a T.

    😉

  • I agree totally. They come from a different place but are very similar. IMO, Heart is still an fundamentalist, she’s just changed religions.

  • I don’t think she cares that she isn’t addressing what Amp was actually saying. This is a great excuse for her and her friends to have another go of, “pity me, I is a woman and that is t3h most oppressed class there is! Look at how they hurt me! They hurts me with their words. They hates me. Those mean trannies, don’t they see how I love them?”
    Heart’s whole thing about love strongly reminds me of conservative Christians. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” anyone?

    And Lucky thinks I’m assimilated and a token!
    Apparently I was brainwashed into thinking I’m a guy; wow, like I’ve never heard that before.
    I guess that brainwashing was done when I was an infant wearing bows on my head? Given that my earliest memories are of thinking I was going to grow a penis and all.

  • I don’t think she cares that she isn’t addressing what Amp was actually saying. This is a great excuse for her and her friends to have another go of, “pity me, I is a woman and that is t3h most oppressed class there is! Look at how they hurt me! They hurts me with their words. They hates me. Those mean trannies, don’t they see how I love them?”
    Heart’s whole thing about love strongly reminds me of conservative Christians. “Love the sinner, hate the sin” anyone?

    And Lucky thinks I’m assimilated and a token!
    Apparently I was brainwashed into thinking I’m a guy; wow, like I’ve never heard that before.
    I guess that brainwashing was done when I was an infant wearing bows on my head? Given that my earliest memories are of thinking I was going to grow a penis and all.

  • IMO Heart missed the central point altogether. Amp wasn’t saying that Radical Feminists are just like Fundamentalist Christians. He was implying that there’s an isomorphism between their views on transpeople. They dislike us for reasons which are structurally equivalent to one another — and which manifest in essentially the same ways, with the same results.

  • IMO Heart missed the central point altogether. Amp wasn’t saying that Radical Feminists are just like Fundamentalist Christians. He was implying that there’s an isomorphism between their views on transpeople. They dislike us for reasons which are structurally equivalent to one another — and which manifest in essentially the same ways, with the same results.

  • Wait, feminists oppose men’s rights? I must have missed that memo.

  • Wait, feminists oppose men’s rights? I must have missed that memo.

  • Samantha Davis

    I’m not anti-women, but after how these self-proclaimed radicals have treated me I must conclude that I am anti-womyn.

  • Samantha Davis

    I’m not anti-women, but after how these self-proclaimed radicals have treated me I must conclude that I am anti-womyn.

  • “but, even putting aside the whole “transwomen are men and have male privilege relative to Us in this our ‘heteropatriarchal’ world! really!” what she means by this, of course, is that she CAN’T “hate” because you need to have power to be able to hate and she doesn’t have any, having been born with girl bits. Therefore, she can be as hateful as ever she likes to anyone not born with girl bits and it doesn’t matter, because it’s totally, like, not her fault. QED.”

    That might be true if womyn had no power. But that just isn’t the case. Womyn born womyn DO have privilege. I posted about that here.

    Here’s the short version:

    1. The odds of me being hired for a job, when competing against trans-women applicants, are probably skewed in my favor.

    2. If I am incarcerated my odds of being raped are low.

    3. I am less likely than a transwoman to face being raped, beaten, murdered, ridiculed, harassed, taunted, threatened, abused by a domestic partner, fired from my job, or expelled from my home.

    4) I am less likely than a transperson to be ostracized by my family and peers for expressing gender in ways that feel comfortable to me.

  • Not just them Belledame, I’ve gotten into some discussions with people about her trans*-hate. they either don’t believe she hates us or they don’t care and have said as much. I’ve pointed out exact threads and quotes and they just shrug. Right after they say how much they aren’t bigots and truly do support trans*folk. I think one woman may actually have been a trans*woman (I don’t remember if she was one of the people on that blog defending Heart or not, but she was in the general discussion). But she also did a bit of the transer-than-thou in regards to a “manly” trans*woman, so yeah.

    And I think the first time I was on the MWMF boards, back in high school, I saw a bit of the Rainsong drama. I recognize the name at least.

  • Not just them Belledame, I’ve gotten into some discussions with people about her trans*-hate. they either don’t believe she hates us or they don’t care and have said as much. I’ve pointed out exact threads and quotes and they just shrug. Right after they say how much they aren’t bigots and truly do support trans*folk. I think one woman may actually have been a trans*woman (I don’t remember if she was one of the people on that blog defending Heart or not, but she was in the general discussion). But she also did a bit of the transer-than-thou in regards to a “manly” trans*woman, so yeah.

    And I think the first time I was on the MWMF boards, back in high school, I saw a bit of the Rainsong drama. I recognize the name at least.

  • as for the people whom i don’t know but look as though they could be nice, sane, decent people who have her rolled: i think sometimes people don’t look very closely, you know. They’re feminist, they see a blog called “womensspace” that seems to be serious and talk about y’know abuses going on in various parts of the world in some length and depth; they figure, oh groovy, and link it; the other stuff doesn’t really cross their radar. is my guess.

  • as for the people whom i don’t know but look as though they could be nice, sane, decent people who have her rolled: i think sometimes people don’t look very closely, you know. They’re feminist, they see a blog called “womensspace” that seems to be serious and talk about y’know abuses going on in various parts of the world in some length and depth; they figure, oh groovy, and link it; the other stuff doesn’t really cross their radar. is my guess.

  • >Oh R’lyeh???

    HAH

  • >Oh R’lyeh???

    HAH

  • On the bright side, those numbers seem to be dwindling all the time, at least the serious people. Right now she has exactly one person whom I respect still trying to talk to her, and that person hasn’t known her for very long, and it looks like Heart’s already getting testy at being Questioned.

    and, Rain, oh, well um. Yeah. Okay, this is a person calling herself Rainsinger; there -was- a person calling herself RainSONG (also, variously, Renee, Lynn, and a few other things) who was a vehement transphobe, much like this one, really; then someone outed her, one day, as trans herself. She went on a number of special pleading crusades as well as–oh, i can’t cover the whole thing or even how i know who the hell she is, just trust me: it was INSANE.

    ANYWAY, Heart knows all this very well, but has apparently decided that THIS Rain(singer) is the TRUE Rain(singer) whom the odious imposter/faux woman RainSONG stole’d her identity. To which Rain serenely agrees: Lynn/Rainsong? Nope, dunno about that. I had boards in the southern hemisphere, many years ago…

    of course Renee/etc. also announced that she’d had “womansspace” boards many years ago. but, I am sure Heart knows best, as she always does. splendid judge of character and everything else that she is…

  • On the bright side, those numbers seem to be dwindling all the time, at least the serious people. Right now she has exactly one person whom I respect still trying to talk to her, and that person hasn’t known her for very long, and it looks like Heart’s already getting testy at being Questioned.

    and, Rain, oh, well um. Yeah. Okay, this is a person calling herself Rainsinger; there -was- a person calling herself RainSONG (also, variously, Renee, Lynn, and a few other things) who was a vehement transphobe, much like this one, really; then someone outed her, one day, as trans herself. She went on a number of special pleading crusades as well as–oh, i can’t cover the whole thing or even how i know who the hell she is, just trust me: it was INSANE.

    ANYWAY, Heart knows all this very well, but has apparently decided that THIS Rain(singer) is the TRUE Rain(singer) whom the odious imposter/faux woman RainSONG stole’d her identity. To which Rain serenely agrees: Lynn/Rainsong? Nope, dunno about that. I had boards in the southern hemisphere, many years ago…

    of course Renee/etc. also announced that she’d had “womansspace” boards many years ago. but, I am sure Heart knows best, as she always does. splendid judge of character and everything else that she is…

  • So trans*men aren’t sexist and feminists think men shouldn’t have rights.
    Saying that trans*women want to use the women’s room to rape/peep on cis*women is critiquing trans*women’s sexism? Calling us “nutjobs” is feminism?
    Oh R’lyeh???

    And has anyone else read the comments? Someone named Rain is saying trans* politics/activism efforts are actively anti-women and anti-feminist and we are all liars.
    Heart moderates her comments, she wouldn’t let those same comments through if they were about any other group of women.
    Honey, your bigotry is showing.

    I can’t believe I find people who still defend Heart and/or their links to her.

  • So trans*men aren’t sexist and feminists think men shouldn’t have rights.
    Saying that trans*women want to use the women’s room to rape/peep on cis*women is critiquing trans*women’s sexism? Calling us “nutjobs” is feminism?
    Oh R’lyeh???

    And has anyone else read the comments? Someone named Rain is saying trans* politics/activism efforts are actively anti-women and anti-feminist and we are all liars.
    Heart moderates her comments, she wouldn’t let those same comments through if they were about any other group of women.
    Honey, your bigotry is showing.

    I can’t believe I find people who still defend Heart and/or their links to her.

  • well, as per the no more “transphobes” than we are “manhaters,” i suppose that’s technically true, in that a number of folks in there surely do hate the mens.

    but, even putting aside the whole “transwomen are men and have male privilege relative to Us in this our ‘heteropatriarchal’ world! really!” what she means by this, of course, is that she CAN’T “hate” because you need to have power to be able to hate and she doesn’t have any, having been born with girl bits. Therefore, she can be as hateful as ever she likes to anyone not born with girl bits and it doesn’t matter, because it’s totally, like, not her fault. QED.

    convenient, that.

  • well, as per the no more “transphobes” than we are “manhaters,” i suppose that’s technically true, in that a number of folks in there surely do hate the mens.

    but, even putting aside the whole “transwomen are men and have male privilege relative to Us in this our ‘heteropatriarchal’ world! really!” what she means by this, of course, is that she CAN’T “hate” because you need to have power to be able to hate and she doesn’t have any, having been born with girl bits. Therefore, she can be as hateful as ever she likes to anyone not born with girl bits and it doesn’t matter, because it’s totally, like, not her fault. QED.

    convenient, that.