Confessions of a Middle-aged Transinista
January 25, 2008
Communities of Ones
January 30, 2008

Radical Feminists on the Transgender v. HBS Controversy

I found a pretty intriguing comment over at Womens Spaces/The Margins concerning a post written by Harry Benjamin Syndrome apologist, Cathy Platine, at Pam’s House Blend.

That whole thread over at PHB consists of males scratching out turf over the female body, each laying claim to ownership.

While I live in this society as a woman, the reality is that I’m male bodied and a surgically constructed vagina will not change that.

Thoughts?

  • Harry Benjamin

    “The often infantile and completely self-centered attitude of many transvestites and transsexuals is occasionally and strikingly illustrated, together with a deeply disturbed, unrealistic, frustrated frame of mind which is the more outspoken, the more the writer inclines toward transsexualism.”

    Harry Benjamin
    http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_03.htm

  • Harry Benjamin

    “The often infantile and completely self-centered attitude of many transvestites and transsexuals is occasionally and strikingly illustrated, together with a deeply disturbed, unrealistic, frustrated frame of mind which is the more outspoken, the more the writer inclines toward transsexualism.”

    Harry Benjamin
    http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_03.htm

  • Marti Abernathey

    Wow, I just realized who “Just Jennifer” is! Ms. Usher, your rep precedes you! Now I can’t say I’m shocked.

    It’s a matter of evidenice, but as you’ve shown most recently, you’re not an attorney, and most certainly aren’t a detective.

    • Yes, and the ultimate question would come down to whether or not a blog entry would be considered transitory or fixed. Given the nature of the medium, it would like be considered transitory, as it is easily removed.

      Nope, I’m not a lawyer, but I do know more than the average person concerning the law. I knew what I was saying when I said “slander” as opposed to libel.

  • Marti Abernathey

    This is what I mean, you obviously don’t know what your talking about. Any changes can be tracked via php logs, and a cache. So, yes… it is fixed.

    • Yes, men do tend to be visual, so I am not surprised. I rather strongly suspect you like playing games, and that you think a simple claim to be surgery tracked will suffice. I honestly doubt you are. It is not at all unusual for someone to make such a claim.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Last I checked, Leigh isn’t “transgender”, and she posted a link to the pic. Maybe you should direct your comments to her.

    I don’t know rather to laugh or feel pity you Marti.

    Well, I know how you feel there Sue, but I do know… I surely pity you.

  • Yes, men do tend to be visual, so I am not surprised. I rather strongly suspect you like playing games, and that you think a simple claim to be surgery tracked will suffice. I honestly doubt you are. It is not at all unusual for someone to make such a claim.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Alas, I’m simply going by the rhetoric y’all spout here. Penis=Man, Women=Vagina. Without proof, visual proof, it’s simply just talk. You can ask others when they’re going to have surgery and question that, but the same burden of proof isn’t laid at your doorstep. Can’t say I’m shocked.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Well, time will tell… I know a lot of people who say they might have surgery some day, but never seem to get around to it.

    LOL. I have to, due to a health condition… as if that’s any of your business.

    And sorry, but I am not providing you with a thrill….

    As if. I just ate brunch.

    And I believe it would still fall under the category of slander. That might make an interesting legal question, but in any case, it is not true…just desperation on your part.

    You obviously aren’t a lawyer:
    via expertlaw.com

    Generally speaking, defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I guess Marti’s days of writing for TG-Tapestry are catching up with her…I can remember Marti saying she was Non Op.

    LOL! That’s Monica Helms.

    Interesting how the past can come back to haunt you.

    You can’t call this place a No Spin Zone.

    I have to go i am getting dizzy my breakfast is going to come up.

    Probably a sign of a stroke…since you obviously don’t know the difference between Monica Helms and Marti Abernathey.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Marti thinks a Transsexual is a woman with a penis who has taken hormones and retains her Male Member.

    Yes, 17 years ago I did. Your point?

  • Sue

    That comment is typical of 15 year old boys obsessed with their penises.

    I should not be surprised to see an advocate of the transgender community stoop to such lows.

    This proves Transgender people are obsessed with genitals.

    It’s no wonder at all that most people just roll their eyes when the word transgender is brought up.

    I don’t know rather to laugh or feel pity you Marti.

    I use to read your articles in TGT and while i didn’t agree with much of what you said i could respect it.
    But you have sunk to such a level that you have lost any respect you did have with anybody who seriously considers transition.

    I am just beside myself with how childish you have become.

    Who in their right mind would point to anything you have said in the last 48 hours and take it seriously.

    I have to move on now I have real work to do. with all the time you spend posting i seriously you are gainfully employed in the Health care industry as you say you are.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Marti will stoop as low as necessary to make a point.

    Funny My Crotch is never been photographed.
    How childish can a “person” like Marti get?
    Keep it up Marti You are the Ann Coulter of the Transgender movement.
    in every way even looks.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Marti will stoop as low as necessary to make a point.

    Funny My Crotch is never been photographed.
    How childish can a “person” like Marti get?
    Keep it up Marti You are the Ann Coulter of the Transgender movement.
    in every way even looks.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Marti will stoop as low as necessary to make a point.

    Funny My Crotch is never been photographed.
    How childish can a “person” like Marti get?
    Keep it up Marti You are the Ann Coulter of the Transgender movement.
    in every way even looks.

    Sue

  • Alas, you clearly have no understanding of the HBS paradigm, but then, that is not surprising.

    No, that is not the standard at all.

    And you do seem to have this obsession with seeing post-op’s crotch shots. Could you possibly, actually be Anne Lawrence?

  • Well, time will tell… I know a lot of people who say they might have surgery some day, but never seem to get around to it.

    And sorry, but I am not providing you with a thrill….

    And I believe it would still fall under the category of slander. That might make an interesting legal question, but in any case, it is not true…just desperation on your part.

  • Sue

    I guess Marti’s days of writing for TG-Tapestry are catching up with her…
    I can remember Marti saying she was Non Op.

    Interesting how the past can come back to haunt you.

    You can’t call this place a No Spin Zone.

    I have to go i am getting dizzy my breakfast is going to come up.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    Of course, they’re not like you… are they?

    And it’s rather ironic coming from an HBS supporter… since y’all see surgery as the standard of womanliness.

    You could say you have 12 monkey ovaries, we couldn’t document it as truth without pictures. Obviously you don’t pick up on sarcasm well.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sues crotch is some see through panties? wow. She really should ask for a refund.

    • Marti Abernathey

      Sue, one only need take a look at your 360 page to see the obvious. The fact that that bothers you, is the issue here. I’m sorry you take offense with reality.

  • Sue

    Marti likes to play it both ways.
    (sorry didn’t mean to out you Marti)

    Marti thinks a Transsexual is a woman with a penis who has taken hormones and retains her Male Member.

    They believe Transsexuals Can Father Children.

    Now call me old school……

    But my Mommy told me a Transsexual was someone who was ether going to or has had a Sex Change Operation.

    I don’t think my Mommy was wrong.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    “Gender variant” is one of those terms that can be an identity when chosen, and an insult when forced on people. Not all butch lesbians would identify that way.

    Try a dictionary:

    butch: notably or deliberately masculine in appearance or manner

    gender: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

    variance:a license to do some act contrary to the usual rule

    They might not define themselves as gender variant… but by definition, they ARE.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Non-op? Hardly. You obviously don’t know me. I decided to have surgery about 2 years ago.

    The fact that you’re now demanding to know when my date is, really shows what you’re made of. Until I see pictures of your vagina, I’ll not feel the need to give you proof of my plans for surgery.

    Some white folks are intelligent, what’s your point?

    Slander? Ya might want to get out your law book. If it’s on a website, that would be called libel, not slander. Slander is the spoken word.

    Besides, it has to be untrue….

  • That is interesting, especially considering that the first FTM to have surgery was in England.

    But I do understand the limitations of what is available.

    Yes, a lot of those would fall into the TG category. The simple fact is, true HBS or transsexuals are, and always have been, exceedingly rare. This is true of both MTFs and FTMs. In relatively recent times, being “trans” has become something of a fad. A lot of people who might have once identified as a crossdresser, or perhaps a butch lesbian, suddenly feel pressured to move forward. It has little to do with identity, and a lot to do with cultural trends. It is just sort of the thing to do. I find it rather interesting, and I admit, more than a little irritating. It causes confusion, and has hurt those who have a real medical need.

    • Sue

      For us it is.
      We take offense to being called TG or gender variant.
      We are not.

      Kindly keep your labels to yourself please.

      Sue

  • Sue

    Just another pervert.
    Now that is just exactly what the TG movement needs.

    to them it is all about genitals regardless of what they say.

    Sue

  • “Gender variant” is one of those terms that can be an identity when chosen, and an insult when forced on people. Not all butch lesbians would identify that way.

  • Oh, now suddenly you are on track for surgery? That is rather interesting…since you seem to have been an avowed non-op. So, when are you scheduled for?

    And I love the nice attempt at slander. No, that is not what I said at all. No, white people who wear FUBU do not always identify as black…but some do. I was referring to a specific behavior, not a simple choice of apparel. But your desperation is showing. Nice to see that you are true to form.

  • Marti Abernathey

    dont do it marti!!! … you’ll shoot your eye out .. 😉

    Talk about biological impossibilities! ;p

  • leigh

    dont do it marti!!! … you’ll shoot your eye out .. 😉

  • leigh

    dont do it marti!!! … you’ll shoot your eye out .. 😉

  • Felix

    Thank you for responding, Jennifer. Yes, we have alternatives but I know of no FTMs in the UK – and I’ve met a LOT – who see phalloplasty as something to aim for. I have no intention of having a hysto as I don’t want to be operated on for no good reason; my womb is atrophying nicely of its own accord, I can’t get pregnant and no-one can see it. I’m not about to have an unnecessary operation just to tick a box. Some have chest surgery, some feel flat enough without it and don’t want to run the risk of anaesthesia or loss of nipple sensation. Some are planning metoids if their anatomy is suitable. Maybe a lot of us would fall into the “TG” category as you see it but we don’t care. And I wasn’t being disingenuous – we all maintain “female” genitalia to a certain extent – it’s a fact; the raw material stays but is affected by hormones and/or surgery. As I said, gender recognition in the UK is not reliant on either of these and no-one loves hospitals.

    • leigh

      right on jennifer ..

  • Felix

    Thank you for responding, Jennifer. Yes, we have alternatives but I know of no FTMs in the UK – and I’ve met a LOT – who see phalloplasty as something to aim for. I have no intention of having a hysto as I don’t want to be operated on for no good reason; my womb is atrophying nicely of its own accord, I can’t get pregnant and no-one can see it. I’m not about to have an unnecessary operation just to tick a box. Some have chest surgery, some feel flat enough without it and don’t want to run the risk of anaesthesia or loss of nipple sensation. Some are planning metoids if their anatomy is suitable. Maybe a lot of us would fall into the “TG” category as you see it but we don’t care. And I wasn’t being disingenuous – we all maintain “female” genitalia to a certain extent – it’s a fact; the raw material stays but is affected by hormones and/or surgery. As I said, gender recognition in the UK is not reliant on either of these and no-one loves hospitals.

    • On that note, I have to ask Val to explain Nexy’s law.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Being gender variant is about how you appear…not your genitals. Butch lesbians are gender variant.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Being gender variant is about how you appear…not your genitals. Butch lesbians are gender variant.

    • Yes, that is a lot of what HBS is about. Even Benjamin spoke of true transsexuals, vs. others.

      Someone, in another place, made an analogy to those white teenagers who want to identify as “black.” They try to dress “black,” talk “black,” and act “black.” Of course, what they really do is just wind up being offensive, especially to many blacks. That is sort of how the TGs are, not just to women, but to transsexuals as well. So many of them think that “transsexual” is higher up the ladder (which doesn’t even exist in reality) so they usurp that term. But in doing so, they claim a status they have no right to, and co-opt transsexual’s pain and suffering that they have no claim to.

      One of the biggest reasons we have chosen to move away from “transsexual,” is that the word is rapidly being taken over by the porn industry. A few years ago, anyone who searched MSN Search for “transsexual” got nothing but porn sites. Many of these sites, perhaps a majority, now use that term to refer to pictures of men, dressed as women, showing off their, uh, hardware. Truly sick.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Who said I’m not a transsexual? I’ve been on hormones since 2001 and am on track for surgery.

    I am educated enough to understand the difference between a medical term (transsexual) and a societal umbrella term (transgender).

    I’m neither proud or ashamed..I am… simply Marti.

    And now you’re being racist? Nice. Because white people that wear FUBU, automatically identify as black?

    Wow, the veil comes off….

  • Marti Abernathey

    Who said I’m not a transsexual? I’ve been on hormones since 2001 and am on track for surgery.

    I am educated enough to understand the difference between a medical term (transsexual) and a societal umbrella term (transgender).

    I’m neither proud or ashamed..I am… simply Marti.

    And now you’re being racist? Nice. Because white people that wear FUBU, automatically identify as black?

    Wow, the veil comes off….

  • No sir, I don’t claim womanhood on the basis of surgery. I had surgery because I am a woman. Along that line, the reason you don’t have surgery is that you are a man. Simple enough.

    As to “transmen,” the ones who want</b? to keep their vagina are not really different from men who want to keep their penis, and claim to be women. Same song, different verse. Yes, I know, surgery for FTMs is not as advanced, but it is available, and there are alternatives. At the very least, they can have top surgery, as well as a hysterectomy and removal or closing of the vagina. The clitoris is enlarged by hormones, and can be freed up so that it forms a small penis. A full phalloplasty is extremely expensive, and not a particularly viable option.

    I do find it rather disingenuous that some wish to try to use the misfortune of FTMs to justify their own deceptions.

  • No sir, I don’t claim womanhood on the basis of surgery. I had surgery because I am a woman. Along that line, the reason you don’t have surgery is that you are a man. Simple enough.

    As to “transmen,” the ones who want</b? to keep their vagina are not really different from men who want to keep their penis, and claim to be women. Same song, different verse. Yes, I know, surgery for FTMs is not as advanced, but it is available, and there are alternatives. At the very least, they can have top surgery, as well as a hysterectomy and removal or closing of the vagina. The clitoris is enlarged by hormones, and can be freed up so that it forms a small penis. A full phalloplasty is extremely expensive, and not a particularly viable option.

    I do find it rather disingenuous that some wish to try to use the misfortune of FTMs to justify their own deceptions.

  • leigh

    ugh !! .. here

    ‘http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/16/55/22275516.jpg’

  • leigh
  • Felix

    Thank you for mentioning FTM bits and pieces, Marti. So, I’ll ask again, are FTMs WOMEN?

    • Sue

      That fits you to a T

      you detest Post-Ops who see themselves as female.

      The shoe fits your stuck with it Sir.

  • Marti Abernathey

    This is what I find hilarious. The very men who want force society to accept them as women, want to hide behind “feminism.” I mean, this is so silly. You want to claim womanhood, and keep your penis. That is the complete antithesis to feminism.

    See, this is what I find hilarious, you’ll claim womanhood based on a surgery you’ve had. If you want to claim an intersex condition, then we’ll talk. But the only difference between us is a surgeon’s knife. It’s rather “hilarious” that someone bases gender on genitals, and on a surgery. That, is classist and elitist to the highest order and is a slap in the face to transmen. They still have vaginas, ya know!

    And hey, I was just agreeing with you. You’re the one who said you were gender variant. And yes, I object to you forcing that label on Sue, just as I object to having the label transgender forced on me.

    There are plenty of natal women who are gender variant. Hello? Can you say butch lesbians?

    Seriously, let’s just cut the crap. You are one of those people who likes being “different.” That is what is important to you. There is nothing wrong with that. Shoot, as long as you stay out of the women’s locker room, you are probably a bit less threatening than some dude with a purple mohawk, safety pins through every place he can fit one, and way too many tattoos.

    Oh yes, “Just Jennifer” knows all, and can peg everyone with labels. If only the world were so easy to peg as you think it is.

    But don’t expect the rest of the world to play along. I went through what I did, and spent the money I spent, and suffered the pain I did, to be normal.

    LOL. Let’s go back to your locker room analogy… how about we go into that locker room and announce you’ve had SRS and used to be a man…lets see how “normal” you are viewed. That’s what this all boils down to, is your shame.

    So, please, don’t insult me by trying to pretend you are anything more than what you are.

    Ditto.

  • Wait a minute. I’ve heard people talking about that perspective, but I’ve never encountered someone who actually believed it. Do you really believe that the sole act of identifying as trans negates someone’s gender identity? I mean, if someone calls themselves a transsexual woman, do you automatically start thinking of them as a man and dismiss them?

    Oh, and don’t forget about trans-gender/sexual men. When making broad generalizations about the “trans-whatever” community, it’s good to keep in mind not all of us got stamped with an ‘M’ on our birth certificates. And that there are cases where folks are fighting for recognition as being both trans and men instead of being both trans and women.

  • That sounds like a person who would really frustrate me. I don’t like it when anyone tries to tell me what I can or can’t do with my body or how I should identify.

    But I wouldn’t say all or even most transgender folks think that way, especially not the ones that are identifying as transsexual at the same time. Certainly there are genderqueers and others who have a wide range of how presenting and discussing their genders, but I take issue with the implication that people who aren’t seeking SRS must be trying to cling to their birth assigned gender and that the gender the identify as should be dismissed.

    I don’t like it when anyone tries to tell me what I can or can’t do with my body or how I should identify. That’s both folks who say that I can’t get surgery and try to bully me out of it, as well as those who say that I must get surgery and try to bully me into it. Frankly, my genitals are of no concern to anyone but me and my lovers.

  • Yes, some of them do. Some of them are even very adamant about it. I remember one in particular who insisted on the phrase “woman-male” to describe transgender and transsexual women. Or “man-female” for an FTM. That person actually strongly opposed SRS for anyone, but that was another issue.

  • Yes, it is. Simply put, you can be a woman, or you can be an out trans-whatever, but you can’t REALLY be both.

  • Which is an interesting question coming from someone who has significant male past with little to claim as female.

    (All conjecture on my part, but i’m assuming you are a late transitioner who spent ~35-45 years being male, perhaps married and fathered a kid or two.)

  • Regardless of where I may fit in this transgender-transsexual spectrum, I do have several friends who identify as transgender, not transsexual. Do you really think that transgender folks want to cling to their birth assigned gender? Getting away from that is what it’s all about.

    Personally, I’m so tired of the distinctions and debates about who’s really what. I’m finding myself in a gray area, anyway. Folks could argue forever about whether the surgery I’m getting counts as SRS (my surgeons thinks it does, btw).

    That’s why I like to just call myself trans. That little truncation sidesteps a lot of nasty debates and arguments. It means I don’t have to out myself as transsexual to the hostile deconstructionists, and that I don’t have to out myself as transgender then debate whether I’m really transsexual (or really a woman) with the gender fundamentalists. In most cases I’m fine discussing the finer points of my trans-identification. I just prefer to do so on my terms and with folks I don’t fear attack from.

  • “Do you want to cling to your male past, or do you want to move on with your life?”

    Is it really an either or?

  • That is an interesting question. There is no easy answer. First off, the most basic question is, “Are you seriously seeking surgery?” If one does not desire SRS, and is not actively working to get it, then one is simply not a transsexual. Second, what is one’s motivation for seeking SRS? There actually are people who are truly autogynephiles. It is not nearly as simplistic as BB&L claim, where if you like boys you are a homosexual transsexual, and if you like girls, you are an AG. That is a formula for discrediting ALL transsexuals.

    And the final question comes down to how one actually identifes, which is closely related to the second question. Do you want to cling to your male past, or do you want to move on with your life?

  • Felix

    In a good way, I hope, nexy? 🙂

  • Felix

    In a good way, I hope, nexy? 🙂

  • I may chalk this up to just living in very different communities, but uh, yeah, you’re assumption about how all other people live is an incredibly inaccurate assessment of my life.

    Almost everywhere I go, I’m out as a trans woman. Because of my age, most folks assume that means that I’ve got a penis, but you know what? Most people don’t ask, and most people don’t care. Sure there are folks who would judge me to not be a woman, but in most cases they would continue to think that no matter what my genitals are (with the notable exception of some women here, such as yourself).

    But I don’t spend much time with folks who would be judgmental, there’s just so many folks who are accepting and see me as who I am unconditionally. At the saturday market here, I’m sure at least 80 out of 100 folks would continue to see me as a woman after a conversation about my trans history and surgical status.

    I’ve got a large community, I work with several different human rights organizations, I’ve been mentored by the mayor, I participate in community events, I perform with women’s theater groups, and I’ve got no shortage of dykes who would be interested in dating me. All in all, I’ve got literally a thousand or so folks who see me as a woman while knowing my surgical status — none of them are “fooled.”

    And now I’m wondering if you might dismiss me or refuse to believe me, and I realize that I don’t really care. Why should I care if a random individual on the internet who has never met me waves their wand of judgment and proclaims me to be a man. Dealing with such absurdity is just a waste of my time when there are so many others who unquestioningly offer me such basic respect.

  • Say, can someone help out here?

    Can you please post a picture of Sue’s genitals?

    I’d like to know if she’s REALLY a woman or not.

    I don’t think I could tell from a clothed picture.

    Sue, where can I find a close-up picture of your crotch? It’s important here, thanks.

  • Say, can someone help out here?

    Can you please post a picture of Sue’s genitals?

    I’d like to know if she’s REALLY a woman or not.

    I don’t think I could tell from a clothed picture.

    Sue, where can I find a close-up picture of your crotch? It’s important here, thanks.

  • So how do you determine who are the “real” transsexuals who also identify with the term transgender and who are the transgender usurpers that are co-opting transsexual’s pain and suffering?

    Too often I see that coming down to some of the silliest litmus tests. And in much of this conversation it seems to come down to the question of whether or not folks agree with you.

    Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it seems from your argument here that transsexuals who disagree with you aren’t really transsexual, but instead transgender and “pretending” to be transsexual. And there’s nothing wrong with being transgender, it just means you haven’t experienced “real” pain and suffering, that you’re not a real woman, you don’t know what it’s like to be a woman, and that you’re only motivation is a sexual fetish.

    That’s a pretty strong motivation for people not to disagree with you.

  • um, i’m speechless.

  • um, i’m speechless.

  • Felix

    Just as a point of interest (I hope!) in order to receive the Gender Recognition Certificate in the UK, which allows you to change sex markers on all documents, including birth certificate, you do not need to have taken hormones or have had any surgery, or plan to do so. A letter from your doctor confirming that you have an identity incongruent with the sex assigned to you at birth and have lived continuously in your preferred gender for two years or more will suffice. We pushed for this as there are so many people who have lived this way for decades – people in their 70’s, 80’s 90’s who would have been terribly hurt and alarmed to be left out of the new law by the “newbies”. They were pioneers, too and we were determined not to let them go to their graves dishonoured.

  • Felix

    Just as a point of interest (I hope!) in order to receive the Gender Recognition Certificate in the UK, which allows you to change sex markers on all documents, including birth certificate, you do not need to have taken hormones or have had any surgery, or plan to do so. A letter from your doctor confirming that you have an identity incongruent with the sex assigned to you at birth and have lived continuously in your preferred gender for two years or more will suffice. We pushed for this as there are so many people who have lived this way for decades – people in their 70’s, 80’s 90’s who would have been terribly hurt and alarmed to be left out of the new law by the “newbies”. They were pioneers, too and we were determined not to let them go to their graves dishonoured.

  • ::acknowledges the very helpful link::

    ::buggers off again::

    /dramatics

  • leigh

    Val ..

    I apologise, but what do you want me to say ? If it is that all those that SAY they are transsexual ..ARE transsexual .. well I can’t. I am sorry but its just not true. There are even post ops that are not really transsexual but none will ever say they are not, however many will say they ARE transgender. The surgeons are inundated with calls from people that want to be turned into a girl, people that have no idea what that really means. Sex & testosterone play a huge part in sexual fetish for males.

    I was talking with a guy once that told me he wanted to find a surgeon to create a vagina for him and leave his penis in place! There are a lot of sick MF’s out there …

    Yes there are plenty of transgender that say they are both transgender and transsexual but FOR ME .. I don’t buy it. Your result may vary.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Right….sure. Just keep telling yourself that. So, I assume you make sure no one knows you have a penis? And how long after they find out you do will they keep viewing you as a woman?

    I don’t broadcast my genitals. I don’t need to.

    Go out and pick a hundred people at random, tell them you have a penis, and want to keep it. See how many think you are “really” a woman. The one or two who do are probably just being nice.

    Again, I don’t need to scream to anyone what my genital configuration is.

    Or go parade around a women’s locker room in the nude. See how long it is before someone screams, “There is a man in here!”

    I wouldn’t parade around a woman’s locker room, regardless of my genitals.

    Or get admitted to the hospital and see if they put you in a room with another woman.

    I’m not really concerned about being admitted to a hospital… I work in one.

    You may fool all of the people some of the time, but the only person you are really fooling is yourself.

    And that is essentially a line that is built on perspective. One could say the very same thing of you. I don’t go around pushing my genitals in other people’s face.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Wow, that hurt Sue. Shows your maturity level. I guess you’re just sore because I’ve stated the obvious.

  • Val

    > “Some of those fokkers were messerschmidts”

    And so we return to where we started, with no honest effort at anything but boundary keeping, and unilateral, categorical and prejudicial denial of any but the most orthodox interpretation of experience.

    No conversation. No query. Just accusations of delusion.

    Ok.
    Done.

  • Well, in a way, Jerry Springer is a form of porn.

    But yes, you are right about the self-esteem issues.

  • Sue

    When i was in high school i knew a couple of my white classmates who did who “I identify as afro-American” thing….
    Your apology is spot on.

    The porn industry is just one reason to abandon the the term Transsexual, Jerry Springer is another, and nobody seems to be doing anything in the TG community to live down ether of those….

    Collectively there appears to be some self esteem issues.

    Sue

  • Sue

    When i was in high school i knew a couple of my white classmates who did who “I identify as afro-American” thing….
    Your apology is spot on.

    The porn industry is just one reason to abandon the the term Transsexual, Jerry Springer is another, and nobody seems to be doing anything in the TG community to live down ether of those….

    Collectively there appears to be some self esteem issues.

    Sue

  • leigh

    …transsexuals that are also transgender ?? cover the bases eh!

    refer back to where I said that transgenders hijack the name transsexual.. or as I have said before in another post …

    “Some of those fokkers were messerschmidts”

  • Now, this is what puzzles me. Why do people like Abernathy feel that they have to claim to be transsexuals when they are not? I mean, this person does not desire surgery, so why call oneself a transsexual?

    It’s like some white teenager putting on FUBU and calling himself “black.”

    Are you ashamed to be what you are?

  • Well, none of the men I have had relations with has known my past history, and none has said a word about my vagina. The ONLY one who raised any questions was the first, and that was because his “girlfriend” raised a question after she spoke to me on the phone. (Long story…but the bottom line was, he was actually a bit suspicious, and still could tell nothing was amiss.) I decided to dump him because he was a jerk, and it turned out he lied about his relationship with her. At the time, he claimed she just shared the house with him. But again, long story that I am not interested in going into.

  • This is what I find hilarious. The very men who want force society to accept them as women, want to hide behind “feminism.” I mean, this is so silly. You want to claim womanhood, and keep your penis. That is the complete antithesis to feminism.

    And hey, I was just agreeing with you. You’re the one who said you were gender variant. And yes, I object to you forcing that label on Sue, just as I object to having the label transgender forced on me.

    Seriously, let’s just cut the crap. You are one of those people who likes being “different.” That is what is important to you. There is nothing wrong with that. Shoot, as long as you stay out of the women’s locker room, you are probably a bit less threatening than some dude with a purple mohawk, safety pins through every place he can fit one, and way too many tattoos.

    But don’t expect the rest of the world to play along. I went through what I did, and spent the money I spent, and suffered the pain I did, to be normal.

    So, please, don’t insult me by trying to pretend you are anything more than what you are.

  • Val

    > They say that they are inwardly female even though there is no evidence from the outside that they are any more than crossdressers and other gender benders.

    I disagree. Many people who are comfortable thinking of themselves as transgender – among other things – share many, most, or in some cases even all important aspects with those who prefer to have nothing whatever to do with it.

    To put it plainly: some transsexuals insist they are not transgender. All well and good. Some transsexuals will say that they are transgender. This should also be well and good. No individual or collective of transsexuals gets to say that their experience is definitive.

  • leigh

    I couldn’t agree more Jennifer .. now if we can just get the other side to recognise that …. we might get somewhere ..

  • Sue

    Marti
    I get email all the time in support of my views.
    It’s no surprise to me that most of them are straight or Post-transition females.

    My Reputation amongst the penis people who wish to fool the world into thinking they are vagina people is legendary i will admit.

    Among Pre-Transition and Post-Transition females it is well received. some have even called me

    “A freedom fighter in the war to liberate true transsexuals from the men in dresses”

    That is why it doesn’t bother me.
    I have more straight friends then anyone else and guess what they know.

    I won’t bore you with the things they say about Trannys.

    Have a nice day.
    Sue

  • Right….sure. Just keep telling yourself that. So, I assume you make sure no one knows you have a penis? And how long after they find out you do will they keep viewing you as a woman?

    Go out and pick a hundred people at random, tell them you have a penis, and want to keep it. See how many think you are “really” a woman. The one or two who do are probably just being nice.

    Or go parade around a women’s locker room in the nude. See how long it is before someone screams, “There is a man in here!”

    Or get admitted to the hospital and see if they put you in a room with another woman.

    You may fool all of the people some of the time, but the only person you are really fooling is yourself.

  • leigh

    Marti …

    Val is indeed showing a more moderate approach to the debate and it is very welcome. Of course, I too have toned down the rhetoric which may be why the other side has. Thats a good thing for all of us. I don’t think it makes us girlfriends yet but I don’t see any point in just yelling across the room at each other.

    Thanks for the welcome.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Again, see google. Your REP is legendary. And you can’t remove it, because it’s truth. That’s not a TOS.

  • Sue

    No honey we have our own.
    we transition have our surgeries and we can walk into the those spaces that we have the right to.

    We work to assimilate into female society on every level, even our voices.

    This is who we are and we make no apologies for it.

    Sue

    • Well, it appears that we can safely conclude that you are a pervert. Or at least a bit of a jerk.

  • Marti Abernathey

    If we use your same logic:

    I agree, Marti, you ARE gender variant. You are a man who wants to pretend to be a woman.

    Then you are transgender. The illogical nature of your post is stunning.

    You’re trying to fit me in one box, while you’re trying to wiggle out of another.

    Sorry you don’t like me saying Sue is gender variant, but it’s apparent to anyone that sees a picture of her.

    And your comment about your gender being about how you “live and act” , I find reprehensible. It’s a throwback to the 1950’s chauvinism that says a man acts one way, and a woman acts another way. My life isn’t an act.

    • leigh

      Val ..

      There has always been a pecking order.. in fact it permeates most societies from birth to death. I don’t see why the HBS should be any different. The crux of the mattter is not that a core sees themselves as “real” but that everyone of us should, else why are we having gender changes in the first place. I don’t know of any transsexual that could possibly think of themself as other than real if they are going to be successfully transitioned. In the same context, much is said about “passing”. The fact is that we should be saying “Being” because passing as is to consider yourself less than.

      I am a realist however. In the strictest term of the definition of “real”, none of us are totally real genetic born women as are natel females. If someone puts forward the argument that they are real because their brain sex was always female yet they were born and assigned male, ie, there were no physical clues to the contrary, then they are not natel females in the strictest terms and by definition not “real”. With intersex born persons that are born with both physical characteristics, one can easily argue the point that the person could be of either brain sex as well. Are they real ? I would have to say they are as real as it gets before crossing the line into strictly natel female or male. This to me is simply logical. One can argue the point of course because the HBS say there is no “gender spectrum” when in fact to go by the logic that they use which is that they are real because they had one of the 2 characteristics mentioned above, one has to conclude that a spectrum does exist even for the HBS … yes ?

      On the flip side, many transgender proponents argue that they are “just as real” and that they have as much right to consider themself female as anyone else does. They say that they are inwardly female even though there is no evidence from the outside that they are any more than crossdressers and other gender benders. They conveniently denounce any need for any action on their part other than the application of makeup and clothes to reinforce their assertion. They assume that since they are as real as anyone else, that they can assume their labels as well which casts a bad light on those of us that are medically diagnosed with those labels. This becomes rampant to the point where those that are “truly transsexual” (thats where that phrase comes from by the way), feel that they have been hijacked and are being spoken for by people that have done little more than read up on the subject.

      HBS (to me), is a way of seperating the “truly transsexual” from the self diagnosed “transsexual”. If the HBS movement ONLY succeed in doing that much, for me it will be a good thing. Its not about elitism, bigotry, exclusionism, transphobia or any of the other labels I hear .. its about a group of people that have gone through a lot of pain, suffering and money to become whole, only to find themself being dragged back to malehood by the stigma now surrounding the word “TRANSSEXUAL”

      As for the rest of my post you commented on, I thank you for your well made points but again say that I believe what I believe.

  • leigh

    Val ..

    There has always been a pecking order.. in fact it permeates most societies from birth to death. I don’t see why the HBS should be any different. The crux of the mattter is not that a core sees themselves as “real” but that everyone of us should, else why are we having gender changes in the first place. I don’t know of any transsexual that could possibly think of themself as other than real if they are going to be successfully transitioned. In the same context, much is said about “passing”. The fact is that we should be saying “Being” because passing as is to consider yourself less than.

    I am a realist however. In the strictest term of the definition of “real”, none of us are totally real genetic born women as are natel females. If someone puts forward the argument that they are real because their brain sex was always female yet they were born and assigned male, ie, there were no physical clues to the contrary, then they are not natel females in the strictest terms and by definition not “real”. With intersex born persons that are born with both physical characteristics, one can easily argue the point that the person could be of either brain sex as well. Are they real ? I would have to say they are as real as it gets before crossing the line into strictly natel female or male. This to me is simply logical. One can argue the point of course because the HBS say there is no “gender spectrum” when in fact to go by the logic that they use which is that they are real because they had one of the 2 characteristics mentioned above, one has to conclude that a spectrum does exist even for the HBS … yes ?

    On the flip side, many transgender proponents argue that they are “just as real” and that they have as much right to consider themself female as anyone else does. They say that they are inwardly female even though there is no evidence from the outside that they are any more than crossdressers and other gender benders. They conveniently denounce any need for any action on their part other than the application of makeup and clothes to reinforce their assertion. They assume that since they are as real as anyone else, that they can assume their labels as well which casts a bad light on those of us that are medically diagnosed with those labels. This becomes rampant to the point where those that are “truly transsexual” (thats where that phrase comes from by the way), feel that they have been hijacked and are being spoken for by people that have done little more than read up on the subject.

    HBS (to me), is a way of seperating the “truly transsexual” from the self diagnosed “transsexual”. If the HBS movement ONLY succeed in doing that much, for me it will be a good thing. Its not about elitism, bigotry, exclusionism, transphobia or any of the other labels I hear .. its about a group of people that have gone through a lot of pain, suffering and money to become whole, only to find themself being dragged back to malehood by the stigma now surrounding the word “TRANSSEXUAL”

    As for the rest of my post you commented on, I thank you for your well made points but again say that I believe what I believe.

  • Sue

    No Marti I just had a birth defect take care of.

  • The term “gender variant” is highly offensive to some of us. I’m sorry, but there is nothing “variant” about my gender. It is, and always has been, female, and that is how I live and act.

    I agree, Marti, you ARE gender variant. You are a man who wants to pretend to be a woman.

    Oh, and you simply prove what I have said many times. I find it ironic that almost all of the people who want to be “transgender activists” are the worst possible choice. I am reminded of a line from an old Pogo cartoon. “We have met the enemy, and he is us!” Really, I don’t worry about the transgender crowd winning. There is no chance of that. I do, however, worry about the damage they will cause in their defeat.

  • Sue

    actually you are wrong.
    i have tried several times to get it removed.
    but with no success.

    That site anyway is run by a tranny fruit cake, so the source has been considered.
    But it does show that your activism is at the very least fake.
    as seen by you cross posting everything under the son to get attention.

  • Marti Abernathey

    And quite simply, if you want to keep your penis, then honey, you are not, and never will be a woman.

    You say that we are forcing you into our club then you decide who is, and is not a woman? Not logical. How society views you as woman, or not, is based on your passing privilege, not your genitals.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Leigh, I think Val has just shown there can be dialogue. I think I’ve gotten to caught up in responding to Sue, and her signal to noise ratio is very high. I’m glad you’re here, and I’m glad that you represent your side with intellect and humor.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I disagree. Again, if Sue wanted to, and the information was untrue, she could have it removed. I didn’t post pictures of her, only links.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue I’ve never denied being gender variant… you have… but obviously you are.

    • Huh?

      I do believe you are more than a bit delusional…

  • Marti Abernathey

    I find it interesting that Marti must on the one hand post a page i have nothing to do with and altered images of me were posted without my permission.

    While my yahoo 360 page is open to the public I am that would have been sufficient to make Marti’s point. instead Marti discredits the argument Marti is trying to make by posting a link to a hit page that is pure fiction.

    If it’s not true, simply contact TS Roadmap’s hosting company and have it removed, as it’s a violation of their TOS. I know it’s NOT and so do you. Your usenet drama is legendary. If anyone needs proof they only need google you.

    The male chovinism, the self centered xenophiba and the ego-maniacal lust for power and control over the lives of others.

    This is why I took some sage advice offlist and stopped responding to you. You obviously don’t know what xenophobia even is.

    Xenophobia

    Main Entry:
    xe·no·pho·bia Listen to the pronunciation of xenophobia
    Pronunciation:
    ˌze-nə-ˈfō-bē-ə, ˌzē-
    Function:
    noun
    Etymology:
    New Latin
    Date:
    1903

    : fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign

    I’m wasting my time debating you. You don’t even know what the words you’re using mean.

    • If you publicly identify as trans-whatever, you are effectively forfeiting being seen as you claim that you wish to be seen. Does it negate their gender identity? No, perhaps not. But it does effectively change how people perceive them. As I have explained it, you became a “Woman, but….” As in, “Oh, she’s a nice woman, but….you do know she used to be a man!” or worse, “Oh, she’s very nice, but she’s *really* a man.” But hey, some people want that. They like being that way. It is what drives their identity.

      And yes, I know several FTMs. It is a funny thing, but for them, assimilating is a lot easier. But some still choose to be seen as “former women,” or whatever.

      Now, that is a person’s right to choose, but it is not the ONLY choice, though many activists will try to tell you otherwise.

  • Marti Abernathey

    How about Democratic Socialists? 😉

  • I have to say, this is one of the funnier of the deconstructionist vs. separatist threads. Sue does have a very good point. Why DO the transgender types keep insisting we have to be a part of their club?

    And quite simply, if you want to keep your penis, then honey, you are not, and never will be a woman. Call that bigotry if you want, but it is the simple truth. And let me make something else clear…that is NOT to say that SRS alone makes one a woman. It is two sides to the same coin. Simply put, if you are not a woman before surgery, you won’t be one afterwards, and if you really, really don’t want surgery, then don’t worry, you aren’t a woman anyway, so don’t sweat it…the surgery would just be a waste of money.

  • I have to say, this is one of the funnier of the deconstructionist vs. separatist threads. Sue does have a very good point. Why DO the transgender types keep insisting we have to be a part of their club?

    And quite simply, if you want to keep your penis, then honey, you are not, and never will be a woman. Call that bigotry if you want, but it is the simple truth. And let me make something else clear…that is NOT to say that SRS alone makes one a woman. It is two sides to the same coin. Simply put, if you are not a woman before surgery, you won’t be one afterwards, and if you really, really don’t want surgery, then don’t worry, you aren’t a woman anyway, so don’t sweat it…the surgery would just be a waste of money.

  • I won’t contest how you ID yourself, but I’d offer that having some characteristics seen as male and some characteristics seen as female creates some complexity. Reproductive ability, for example. Plenty of us end up having neither a female reproductive ability nor a male reproductive ability. I’d offer that chromosomes only influence the body through the production of hormones, and that changing one’s hormones will do more to change one’s sex than (hypothetically) changing chromosomes would.

    The argument that I’m getting at is that sex is a social construction — depending on your own perspective and thinking on things, reasonable folks can look at the same body and come to different conclusions about whether it is a male body or a female body.

    With that in mind, I think it’s appropriate to have some level of self-identification when it comes to bodies. Myself, I don’t appreciate hearing my body referred to as male (like in the original comment you highlighted), nor do I feel that is an accurate characterization.

    Additionally, the difference between sex and gender, in practice, is almost nil. It’s clear from the commenter’s tone that she meant to indict trans women as not really women — calling us “male” was the tactic to do so. Regardless of whether you might agree with the accuracy of the label of male, the sentiment is pretty clearly inappropriate.

  • leigh

    …mine says “girl” .. see I told you I was better than ya’ll … 😉

  • leigh

    …mine says “girl” .. see I told you I was better than ya’ll … 😉

  • How many states have a sex designation on the birth certificate?
    I know that Massachusetts does not but I have no idea how many do and out that number, how many allow you to be issued a new one or even seal the old one once it is amended.

    I’ll have to ask Kat about that one.

  • Val

    Good post, Leigh. Really.

    A couple of points:

    > There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”.

    Can you see now the operation of a pecking order, and why some of us are opposed to it? A very narrowly-self-defined core group thinks of themselves as “real” – and based at least as much on ideology as on evidence, as I’ve pointed out and as you have now experienced – their outliers (like yourself) take issue with some of the ideology but think of themselves as real but not their own outliers… and so on.

    > For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree, though I choose not to be as absolutist as yourself. I do think of “commitment” as a potentially valid state of awareness that, to the extent it can be honestly discerned, provides an useful measure. The trouble here is that it is only an internal state, and is often assumed to infallibly read by others.

    > For me… are not… is not…

    This is my own major sticking point. I have no problem at all with you declaring your independent, self-aware transsexualism, and your complete lack of affinity with anything “transgender.” I do have more than a little problem with you seeking to define anything other than yourself, within the context of your own self-knowledge.

    > I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail.

    This I strongly agree with.

  • Val

    Good post, Leigh. Really.

    A couple of points:

    > There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”.

    Can you see now the operation of a pecking order, and why some of us are opposed to it? A very narrowly-self-defined core group thinks of themselves as “real” – and based at least as much on ideology as on evidence, as I’ve pointed out and as you have now experienced – their outliers (like yourself) take issue with some of the ideology but think of themselves as real but not their own outliers… and so on.

    > For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree, though I choose not to be as absolutist as yourself. I do think of “commitment” as a potentially valid state of awareness that, to the extent it can be honestly discerned, provides an useful measure. The trouble here is that it is only an internal state, and is often assumed to infallibly read by others.

    > For me… are not… is not…

    This is my own major sticking point. I have no problem at all with you declaring your independent, self-aware transsexualism, and your complete lack of affinity with anything “transgender.” I do have more than a little problem with you seeking to define anything other than yourself, within the context of your own self-knowledge.

    > I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail.

    This I strongly agree with.

  • Val

    Good post, Leigh. Really.

    A couple of points:

    > There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”.

    Can you see now the operation of a pecking order, and why some of us are opposed to it? A very narrowly-self-defined core group thinks of themselves as “real” – and based at least as much on ideology as on evidence, as I’ve pointed out and as you have now experienced – their outliers (like yourself) take issue with some of the ideology but think of themselves as real but not their own outliers… and so on.

    > For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are.

    I don’t entirely disagree, though I choose not to be as absolutist as yourself. I do think of “commitment” as a potentially valid state of awareness that, to the extent it can be honestly discerned, provides an useful measure. The trouble here is that it is only an internal state, and is often assumed to infallibly read by others.

    > For me… are not… is not…

    This is my own major sticking point. I have no problem at all with you declaring your independent, self-aware transsexualism, and your complete lack of affinity with anything “transgender.” I do have more than a little problem with you seeking to define anything other than yourself, within the context of your own self-knowledge.

    > I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail.

    This I strongly agree with.

  • Sue

    Marti doesn’t care
    Marti will do anything right or wrong to support Marti’s activism.
    This is the morally bankrupt doctrine of situational ethics.

    Marti has good company in Richard Nixon and Both Bushes.

    Sue

  • leigh

    I have to agree with both Kate and Sue on this. It’s just enormously tiring to keep going over the same ground ad infinitum ..

    Its pretty obvious to me that there is no meeting of the minds on these subjects, nor can there ever be. Most of this is argument for argument’s sake. While this can be hugely entertaining it accomplishes nothing and in the end result leaves all of no further forward.

    In a recent statement elsewhere on this blog I made the statement that while I am a “classic” transsexual woman having had surgery in what may become known as the “golden era”, I am not HBS in the total definition of what the HBS define as HBS.

    I took some flak from the HBS for posting that
    statement. There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”. However I stand by the statement because I see no point in going to the other extreem view that HBS are somehow intersex. Some may be, of that I have no doubt but from what I have seen its as un-winnable an argument than for a non-op transgender to say that they don’t need surgery to be the woman they say they are, even if I and others dont buy it.

    For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are. For me, there are no part time transsexuals. For me, there are no non-op transsexuals except in the case of those that cannot for medical reasons. For me, a non-op transsexual is not the same as a transsexual that would if they had the money and will when they get the money. For me, there are no late term transsexuals that rediscovered themselves during a mid life crisis on the internet. For me, there are no transsexuals that will not, only those that will make things happen or die trying. For me, all the rest are something else but they are not transsexual.

    I can already feel the venom that those statements are producing. These are and always will be my views on what it is to be transsexual. These views, like your views, are not up for discussion. I care not how anyone receive’s them or to what extent they hurt those that feel them to be exclusionary to them. These are MY opininons, MY beliefs. They come from 30 years of my experience living full time in my target gender and having interacted with others in society from all walks of life. They are not elitist, bigoted or exclusionary. They just are my truths and always will be. I shall take them to the grave.

    The times they are a changing. Perhaps, hopefully not in my lifetime, the rules will change. Perhaps society will all become as one and the individual will become part of the collective and all things will be equal to all people. That is certainly not what I would like to see happen as I don’t believe in communism or a collective. I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail. I believe that the measure of a human being is not in what they can do as a whole, but what they can do as an individual.

    Leigh

  • leigh

    I have to agree with both Kate and Sue on this. It’s just enormously tiring to keep going over the same ground ad infinitum ..

    Its pretty obvious to me that there is no meeting of the minds on these subjects, nor can there ever be. Most of this is argument for argument’s sake. While this can be hugely entertaining it accomplishes nothing and in the end result leaves all of no further forward.

    In a recent statement elsewhere on this blog I made the statement that while I am a “classic” transsexual woman having had surgery in what may become known as the “golden era”, I am not HBS in the total definition of what the HBS define as HBS.

    I took some flak from the HBS for posting that
    statement. There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”. However I stand by the statement because I see no point in going to the other extreem view that HBS are somehow intersex. Some may be, of that I have no doubt but from what I have seen its as un-winnable an argument than for a non-op transgender to say that they don’t need surgery to be the woman they say they are, even if I and others dont buy it.

    For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are. For me, there are no part time transsexuals. For me, there are no non-op transsexuals except in the case of those that cannot for medical reasons. For me, a non-op transsexual is not the same as a transsexual that would if they had the money and will when they get the money. For me, there are no late term transsexuals that rediscovered themselves during a mid life crisis on the internet. For me, there are no transsexuals that will not, only those that will make things happen or die trying. For me, all the rest are something else but they are not transsexual.

    I can already feel the venom that those statements are producing. These are and always will be my views on what it is to be transsexual. These views, like your views, are not up for discussion. I care not how anyone receive’s them or to what extent they hurt those that feel them to be exclusionary to them. These are MY opininons, MY beliefs. They come from 30 years of my experience living full time in my target gender and having interacted with others in society from all walks of life. They are not elitist, bigoted or exclusionary. They just are my truths and always will be. I shall take them to the grave.

    The times they are a changing. Perhaps, hopefully not in my lifetime, the rules will change. Perhaps society will all become as one and the individual will become part of the collective and all things will be equal to all people. That is certainly not what I would like to see happen as I don’t believe in communism or a collective. I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail. I believe that the measure of a human being is not in what they can do as a whole, but what they can do as an individual.

    Leigh

  • Sue

    i find it interesting that Marti must on the one hand post a page i have nothing to do with and altered images of me were posted without my permission.

    While my yahoo 360 page is open to the public I am that would have been sufficient to make Marti’s point. instead Marti discredits the argument Marti is trying to make by posting a link to a hit page that is pure fiction.

    What Marti reviles here is the rot that exists within the transgender community.

    The male chovinism, the self centered xenophiba and the ego-maniacal lust for power and control over the lives of others.

    Marti you and your ilk are festering scapula on the face of the transgender movement
    Is it really any wonder the movement never gets anywhere and who HBS identified men and woman are leaving to tend to their own needs.

    You can quote me on that.

    Sue

    I would like to hang around but i have things to do.

  • leigh

    You are missing the point Marti .. or more like side stepping it .. I am not about to waste my time trying to explain it .. teaching pigs to sing is futile ..

    I will say that its bad form to publish or link to pictures of someone on this blog without their permission … but then you knew that too..

  • leigh

    I think thats what I said Sue ..

  • Sue

    There is a large difference between changing your birth certificate (amending it) and sealing it and obtaining a new one.

    A new birth certificate does not have the person’s previous sex on it.
    This may seem like a technicality to many however it is not.

    Sue

  • There are only 2 states with explicit laws
    barring transgender people from changing their birth certificate (Tennessee and Idaho) and one state with a lower court ruling that hasn’t been challenged in quite some time (Ohio).

  • Sue

    it’s funny you know you can post all the photoshopped pictures you want.

    while the second link is my picture taken in Thailand in December of 2003. the first are not.

    tomming from you and i might add you don’t do much for your look whatever that is You certianly are in no position to judge passability.
    I also find it laughable trannys like you are the first to start whining about passing privilege.

    Maybe you need your eyes checked there are lots of frumpy plain looking middle aged women out there.

    oh well i wouldn’t have expected anything but a Male Chauvinist comment out of you and your ilk.

    This is why you get called men in dresses by the real feminists.
    who largely ignore us.

    One more thing
    Get some voice lesions
    You sound like a man. You don’t even use female inflection or cadence.
    There is a little peace of your passing privilege you could work on dude.

  • Sue

    I also am becomming tired of this…
    I would think transgenders would be glad to see those of us who they hate for having surgery and moving on with our lives finally out of their little community.

    We never asked to be a part of the transgender YOU took the term that granted us by one of the discoverers of our affliction and turned it into something it is not.

    We are so sorry our existence offends you like the Jews offended Hitler.

    Like the native Americans offended the Europeans who took this land from my ancestors.

    why are you afraid of us leaving Your Movement. You have done nothing for us that we haven’t done for ourselves before you ever thought of having a transgender rights movement.

    Leave us the Hell alone You don’t need us and we sure as the day is long don’t need you.

    Sue

  • Sue

    I also am becomming tired of this…
    I would think transgenders would be glad to see those of us who they hate for having surgery and moving on with our lives finally out of their little community.

    We never asked to be a part of the transgender YOU took the term that granted us by one of the discoverers of our affliction and turned it into something it is not.

    We are so sorry our existence offends you like the Jews offended Hitler.

    Like the native Americans offended the Europeans who took this land from my ancestors.

    why are you afraid of us leaving Your Movement. You have done nothing for us that we haven’t done for ourselves before you ever thought of having a transgender rights movement.

    Leave us the Hell alone You don’t need us and we sure as the day is long don’t need you.

    Sue

  • Felix

    “A transperson that didn’t cut it”. Cut what? Looking like the natal version of their gender? Sure. I have also met a number of NON-trans women who have regularly been mistaken for transwomen because of height and bone structure and had rude things said about them in the Ladies room. We don’t carry ID cards in the UK so any challenge in this area had to be met with a verbal explanation – not a nice experience for the women concerned.

  • eastsidekate

    This is likely the last I’ll say on this (or related threads) for a while, because it’s all been said before, but the argument I’m hearing is that:

    1) People with other identities sometimes behave in ways that make me angry.

    2) My identity as a woman is authentic.

    I agree with both of those points. As it happens, both are true for me, too. The problem is, the two statements aren’t linked. It’s not a zero-sum game. This happens over and over and every level of society– certain members of some group try to assert that they should be accepted, because they’re not freaks like those people over there. It’s tiring. We can argue for the legitimacy of the womanhood of transsexual women (and women with WBS) without talking ill of other people.

  • eastsidekate

    This is likely the last I’ll say on this (or related threads) for a while, because it’s all been said before, but the argument I’m hearing is that:

    1) People with other identities sometimes behave in ways that make me angry.

    2) My identity as a woman is authentic.

    I agree with both of those points. As it happens, both are true for me, too. The problem is, the two statements aren’t linked. It’s not a zero-sum game. This happens over and over and every level of society– certain members of some group try to assert that they should be accepted, because they’re not freaks like those people over there. It’s tiring. We can argue for the legitimacy of the womanhood of transsexual women (and women with WBS) without talking ill of other people.

    • Sue

      Sue, this was my original comment to you. In every picture of you I’ve ever seen, you don’t pass as a natal female to me. People don’t typically go around searching other people’s undergarments to decide if someone is male or female. They go on what they see. And when I look at you, I see someone that looks gender variant.

      I do just fine hon…
      I don’t have a brow ridge like yo have and an Adams apple of any kind. Besides unlike you don’t need to worry about passing i am female.

      By the way I saw your post up on TGV Advocacy That was really mature shall i repost it here for every one to see.

      I find it laughable you think of yourself as a “Super Star”
      To quote your exace words.
      Who kissed your feet this morning. or was it your butt.


      <snip for foul language and obvious immaturity.

      Please stop giving us superstars the Michael Jordan treatment.

      Marti

      Real Pillar of the community

      Sue

  • Val

    Oh my lord she’s an autogynephile.

    And that’s the self-proclaimed epitome of True Transsexualism?

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave, eh?

  • Marti Abernathey

    “read this blog .. its been eluded too by many

    I don’t think ANYONE has said that. Even ENDA doesn’t say that.

    While the transgender believe that statement there can be no peace or gains. They must realise that not everyone can win this the way they are going.. as with all things getting a foot in the door is better than having the door slammed in your face.

    That is exactly why I consider HBS women an adversary. We will win. It is a matter of common sense and attrition. It may not happen tomorrow, next year, or in my lifetime, but it will happen. Getting a foot in the door? Hardly. Look who’s passing legislation on the local level. Look who’s advocating for transgender people of all flavors. The only HBS person that even closely resembles an activist is Ms Cooke.

    Oh right .. you have never met a trans person that didn’t cut it ?? Is that what your telling me ?

    Oh yes, I’ve seen a person of paleo-transgender history. She claims to have passing privilege, but I’d ask you if you believe that’s so. Judge for yourself:
    here and here.

    Passing has nothing to do with if you have a vagina or a penis. I used to date a transgender woman that started her path as a drag queen, but stopped performing and continued to live full time. She’s one of the most beautiful women I know, is petite, wears size 8 shoes, and has never done hormones or had any surgery of any kind. She’s also one of the most passable transgender women I’ve ever known. I can’t believe it’s hard for so many to understand.

  • Sue

    Leigh,
    The bathroom isn’t really the problem it’s the other women’s spaces.
    I have been a lot of places in the US and never had any trouble for all the years i have been using the restroom…

    Transpeople need to realize
    Their invitation into women’s spaces is just that an invitation.

    Transpeople may find out if they get too pushy that invitation will be revoked.

    Sue

  • Sue

    You must not know very many then.

    Sue

  • leigh

    Sue –

    I agree it would not effect everyone but for those it does effect its a nasty scenario and one that can be avoided.

    I definatly agree that federal legislation recognizing post ops as being a full member of their *target* gender is badly needed.

  • Kate –

    “RIght, but my point is that I’m not sure that I’m aware of any people that have argued that “virtually anyone” should be allowed to use whichever restroom they feel most identified with.”

    read this blog .. its been eluded too by many

    All of this seems like a huge red herring– it’s as if a certain subset of transsexual women (or women with HBS) are trying to solidify the legitimacy of their gender by issuing vocal attacks on those with less acceptable forms of gender expression.

    While the transgender believe that statement there can be no peace or gains. They must realise that not everyone can win this the way they are going.. as with all things getting a foot in the door is better than having the door slammed in your face.

    “Further, I’m not sure how it would be possible to enforce a ban of transsexual women (or those with HBS) from women’s restrooms. On a day-to-day basis, who can tell which women have been raised as women from birth, and which ones weren’t?

    Oh right .. you have never met a trans person that didn’t cut it ?? Is that what your telling me ?

    • Actually, as I said, this is a gray area, that as far as I know has not been settled by any case law. We both have opinions here. I am willing to concede that it is an open question. You have a classic male obsession with being right.

      Oh well…

  • Felix

    I wonder what would happen if/when it becomes possible for transwomen to have wombs and ovaries genetically grown and transplanted? Will there be lots of arguing about the ones going without being “less real” than the others? Just felt like stirring it. 🙂

  • Felix

    I wonder what would happen if/when it becomes possible for transwomen to have wombs and ovaries genetically grown and transplanted? Will there be lots of arguing about the ones going without being “less real” than the others? Just felt like stirring it. 🙂

  • Danae L. M.

    Or at least it would be quite unlikely.

  • Nope, no biology textbook would call an XXY either female or male – but I’ve seen such things as AIS women designed as males, simply on the basis of Karyotype.

  • Sue

    I started using the ladies room contentiously in 1988, that year i was booted out of a men’s room at the AMC Mission Valley 20 Multiplex. .
    I had my GRS on November 21 2003 so it was not ten years ago
    I don’t know where you get your facts but it is not from me.

    once again i am not the one that says TG’s and Pre-Op’s shouldn’t ues the ladies room.

    Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
    I hope not i would hate to see yu loose track of what you are doing on the job.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    See that’s the difference between us Sue. I actually do stuff. You post comments to websites. Part of activism is to ACT.

    I won’t pull out my activist cred because other people recognize it and have expressed it for me. Can you say the same?

  • Sue

    I know what You Think the difference is.

    I got to tell you that TGV-Advocacy post is a keeper.

    Do you really think you are some kind of activist Super-star?

    Because you are not.
    Activism begins at home even Martin Luther King practiced that.

    and you have the BALLS and i do mean BALLS to call me arrogant, what a laugh.
    ………

    Sorry had to pause a little so i could stop laughing.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    LOL. Most intersex people I’ve interacted with are offended by HBS.

  • eastsidekate

    RIght, but my point is that I’m not sure that I’m aware of any people that have argued that “virtually anyone” should be allowed to use whichever restroom they feel most identified with.

    I’m also not aware of any legislation (either enacted or proposed) that specifically addresses the issue of trans people in bathrooms.

    Further, I’m not sure how it would be possible to enforce a ban of transsexual women (or those with HBS) from women’s restrooms. On a day-to-day basis, who can tell which women have been raised as women from birth, and which ones weren’t?

    All of this seems like a huge red herring– it’s as if a certain subset of transsexual women (or women with HBS) are trying to solidify the legitimacy of their gender by issuing vocal attacks on those with less acceptable forms of gender expression.

    Lastly, I’m not sure how respectful it is to refer to people as “transgenders”… linguistically, it’s akin to saying “those things”.

  • Marti Abernathey

    bu bye now.

  • Marti Abernathey

    bu bye now.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue, how long did you use the men’s room after going fulltime in 1980?
    If you had surgery 10 years ago, that means that a) Suporn had only been doing surgery for 4 years and b) you’d have been using the men’s room for 18 years living fulltime as a woman. People with men’s genitals shouldn’t use the woman’s restroom, right?

  • Marti Abernathey

    Apparently you don’t know the difference from male and man.

  • Sue

    Some HBS folk would be affected by a ban on trans-anything being allowed in the bathroom.
    some with proper documentation wouldn’t be bothered at all. HBS folk need to work with state officials to get Birth certificate reform in all fifty states. instead of half of them. The states that won’t allow new birth certificates and seal old ones should be persuaded to do so, i believe with the help of mental health and medical professionals this could happen.

    If you are borne in California a law banning anyone but females in the ladies room would not affect you if you have executed all your court orders.

    Anyone Post-Transition who was borne in California can go to any state in the union including California and marry legally.

    California defines legal sex by what the birth certificate says and will issue a new one on evidence genital reconstructive surgery and a court order.

    Oh and before anybody gets cute and sites Oiler and other cases like it…
    Oiler had an amended birth certificate not a new one.

    DOMA doesn’t effect TS borne in California if they have done their homework.

    Sue

  • Stellewriter

    I just think about those who could find no one, I mean no one, to love them, or even show that they were worth knowing. Those who in desperation put a rope around their neck and jumped off the balcony. I think of those who are locked out of their past and into the cold and lonely silence of transexuality. No one to love them, not even themselves….

    Not even others who should know how deeply they need to be accepted. Strange that one who is bleeding should deny another recognition that they are bleeding too.

  • Kate ..

    I think the main objection is that the HBS/transsexuals claim anyone who is not either in serious transition or had surgery, should not be using the womens room.

    Of course the problem with that is how can anyone tell who is or isnt in transition or post op?

    The transgenders want the law amended to allow virtually anyone to use any bathroom they feel identified with. That will never happen since after all we are talking about womens rooms not trans anything rooms and the women of the world are not going to allow that at all.

    So, instead of the transgendered just leaving the bathroom issue in the status quo where women dont feel threatened, they have to push for this right and the result of this will be ……..

    … a law that outlaws any trans anything in the bathroom, much like the way they have strengthened DOMA.

    Fact is that if the bathroom issue ever came up on any ballot I can guarentee that most females will vote to ban all men and all trans-everything from their bathrooms.

    For HBS/transsexuals, pre op and post op this sort of law would open them up to huge discrimination, lose them their jobs, out them in the newspapers etc etc etc…

    The transgenders for their part .. the non-ops, the transvestites and the crossdressers would simply not be affected that much since they do not have to live full time and would not be the ones that are caught in the mess. For those of us that do live and work 24/7 we don’t have a choice.

    Thats the real issue.

    Its one of, but not all of, the issues fueling this Transgender Vs HBS/Transsexuals war. Until the transgenders think about what they are doing and the consequences they may bring, this war will grow exponentially.

  • Sue

    Your point is as always is…
    when you are cornered you always resort to calling even XXY people men.

    That is all you can do to redeem yourself except for repeating a four letter word 39 times.

    Honey your Roots are showing and i don’t mean your hair.

    Sue

  • Stellewriter

    Hey Stellewriter, Why don’t you bail out of the tranny crap and get a life? You know that no one really cares about making a change that will help others other than themselves. Are you numb or what?

  • Marti Abernathey

    I do just fine hon…
    I don’t have a brow ridge like yo have and an Adams apple of any kind. Besides unlike you don’t need to worry about passing i am female.

    I never stated I’m not gender variant (although I don’t have an Adam’s Apple of any kind). You don’t have to worry about passing? That’s how people judge your sex, not what’s in pants.

    My post to TGv was to make a point that those old timers (activists that actually DO things like activism) are being treated differently from newbies… and that isn’t fair.

  • Sue

    You also forgot to post a sign saying Caution Egomaniac At Work.

    Sue

  • Stellewriter

    Side note: if anyone of you work in the geno research area, please share some of the latest findings.

  • Sue

    By the way I guess that is the way you treat all interex people.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    I was living full time and working in the defense electronics industry in 1980.
    What were you doing then hiding in a closet somewhere i suppose.

    I was in high school…..

    The problem with people like you is you didn’t learn to grow up before going full time.

    Oh yes Sue, you’re the epitome of maturity.

  • Stellewriter

    What are we going to do when the evidence and research is posted to show that Intersexuals and Transexuals are part of a continuum of endocrin and congenital gene disaster. Do you suppose we would all have a group hug, and then ask why HRC and Barney Frank do not love us?

    But please, let’s get a hold on our hormones and extraneous body parts and treat each other like we need each other, because we do!

  • Sue

    I fixed a birth defect.
    being XXY that peace of meat didn’t belong there.

    What about you?

  • Sue

    Logic is my my friend.

    Go have fun with fake const5ruct.
    or get GRS and a real life.

    This is getting boring.
    Have a nice day honey.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    I only lay ownership to what i was borne with.

    Those transgender people who won’t give up their male privilege and their genitals don’t belong in certain woman’s spaces.

    Those who give up those man things do belong.

    You said you had SRS, does that mean you had a penis? After all, if that’s true, you’re claiming ownership of a female body based on surgery.

  • Sue

    That is really true Leigh.
    True love in unconditional

    🙂

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    Give me a break it is cosmetic
    Take some hormones drink some beer and you ahve the butt of a woman.

    Come On Marti
    You can do better then that.

    That is not something you are borne with.

    Trans Bodied?
    The Easter Bunny
    Santa Clause
    The boggy Man(or woman if you wish)
    The Tooth Farry.
    All the same.

    You think that just because you can make something up that makes it reality.
    Sorry not in this world.

    Logic is not your friend…. just because you aren’t born with something doesn’t mean that your physiological makeup hasn’t changed. If you look at mammography of a transwoman and compare it to a natal male, there is a huge difference in tissue.

  • Sue

    That is really true Leigh.
    True love in unconditional

    🙂

    Sue

  • Sue

    your only partially right….
    the spread of diseases in hospital is directly related to the lack of copper door knobs and it has been proven.

    They are not used in new construction because they cost 8 to 10 times as much.

    I am glad it’s you working there and not me.

    Sue

  • Sue

    I can quote the rest if you want.
    I keep all my emails.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue, your factoids are nothing short of Cliff Clavinish. MRSA and VRE (not VRSA) are not common because antibiotics aren’t prescribed nearly as much as they are here.

    • Sue

      One thing i would bet Marti doesn’t know…
      Why did all the hospitals and doctors offices when you and I were growing up have Copper Door Knobs?

      I guess you don’t know…..

      Well i will tell you..

      Copper is anti bacterial.
      Since 1979 i haven’t seen a copper door know or handle on a hospital door (in side or out).

      They do have them in Thailand.

      In Thai Hospitals they don’t have a problem with MRSA or VRSA
      Do you know what these are?

      Do you know how many people in US hospitals suffer from Post-Operative, secondary infection?

      Maybe Marcy should start practicing overseas.

      Have a nice day hon.

      Sue

  • Sue …

    Breasts on women .. beer belly’s on men .. thats why we fit together so well 🙂

    … seriously though .. Love cares not the vessel it resides in.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue said:

    SomeHow i doubt you ahve seen very many bodies that are outside the norm.
    quantity is not a substitute for diversity.That doesn’t mean you know a whit about surgical technique, now does it? I shall answer that for you It doesn’t

    Then you’d be wrong. I’ve been a Cat Scan technologist for 8 years and an x-ray technologist for 13. I’ve seen more anatomy than you’ve posted comments on websites. Your lack of logic is staggering, since if anatomy is diverse, I’d have seen the diversity.

    Val said:

    And this is where the actual bigotry makes itself plain. To people such as Sue, there is no possible perception other than her own, and she feels infallibly competent to judge and diagnose the character and motivations of… well, just about anyone.

    To Sue and her cohort, anyone who is not now post-op is by definition someone who “loves their male genitals and privilege.”

    Well, while I do believe in male privilege, I’m not sure what privilege there is in appearing female, but having male genitals.

    Sue said:

    And the reason why you haven’t had genital reconstruction?

    Wow, so you’re the genital police now?

    That is the way the mainstream sees things;
    Male=penis
    Female=Vagina

    Didn’t your parents teach you the Facts of Life?

    Sue, this was my original comment to you. In every picture of you I’ve ever seen, you don’t pass as a natal female to me. People don’t typically go around searching other people’s undergarments to decide if someone is male or female. They go on what they see. And when I look at you, I see someone that looks gender variant.

    • Sue

      I could never figure that out.

      Maybe we have it all wrong and it’s breasts that are the real separator between men and women
      🙂

      Hetro homo who really cares.

      I am just a lesbian in love with another woman.

      Sue

  • Sue

    I could never figure that out.

    Maybe we have it all wrong and it’s breasts that are the real separator between men and women
    🙂

    Hetro homo who really cares.

    I am just a lesbian in love with another woman.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Old yes
    Old school yes.
    Primitive No.

    We got along just fine with straight folks. I was living full time and working in the defense electronics industry in 1980.
    What were you doing then hiding in a closet somewhere i suppose.

    The problem with people like you is you didn’t learn to grow up before going full time.

    You think you need to turn the world into your personal Tranny Ghetto.

    It’s not going to happen Marti.

    We the people who live in the mainstream won’t let it happen.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    Paleo-Transgender history? You are an old or ancient transgender person?

    Prefix
    paleo-

    1. very old; prehistoric
    2. very early; primitive

  • leigh

    NY Italian accent required here :

    “Wads wid dees tranny chaser’s anyhow” ?

    “They say day are straight but like to suck dick”!

    “Whadda day do… Get up in da morning and toss a coin”?

    “Heads:…. Fur Pie”! …. Tails:…. Balls across the nose”!

    ???????????????

  • leigh

    NY Italian accent required here :

    “Wads wid dees tranny chaser’s anyhow” ?

    “They say day are straight but like to suck dick”!

    “Whadda day do… Get up in da morning and toss a coin”?

    “Heads:…. Fur Pie”! …. Tails:…. Balls across the nose”!

    ???????????????

  • Val

    Oh? where have I made any inference about the sexual or other proclivities of HBS-identified individuals?

    I haven’t. I have discussed identity politics and surgery.

    God. Never mind. I keep forgetting. This is your one game, and you’ll pull it all night.

    Bored now.

  • Sue

    Hay you know..
    I could say the same thing about all those nasty comments you have made toward HBS identified Females.
    But i didn’t.

    If it is getting too warm in the kitchen can i suggest the living room where the conversation is more tame.

    Sue

  • Val

    > Between you and me The taste of Dick is not so bad if like other vegetables you wash it first.

    This is the second time that someone here has made a prejudicial assumption regarding my sexuality.

    It is the umpteenth time that you in particular have made unwarranted and prejudicial assumptions about someone you’re arguing with.

  • Sue

    Transphobic that depends on their experience with transfolk.
    Given some here i can see their transphobia being justified.

    However i get a little flack from both sides on this one. because i support what the promoters of HBS are doing and i my best friend is TG.

    Sue
    GO figure.

  • Sue

    Leigh,
    I guess my bad experience with men is showing….
    With that said your right about all the good ones being taken.
    I am happy for you.

    As for me.. I have a wonderful girlfriend and i am very happy.
    —————————-
    Val…
    Just because i thing Tranny Chasers are not worth going after doesn’t make it a pathology.

    Some would say your the one with the Pathology.

    I shall leave that to more qualified souls.

    If you are happy that is what counts.
    Between you and me The taste of Dick is not so bad if like other vegetables you wash it first.
    Sue

  • Val

    Hear, hear!

  • Sue

    To Sue and her cohort, anyone who is not now post-op is by definition someone who “loves their male genitals and privilege.”

    And the reason why you haven’t had genital reconstruction?

    The generalization is as hideous as it is false, and its presentation here puts Sue squarely in the camp of the deranged.

    There is nothing false about it.
    Your going to have to grow up and deal with the mainstream some day and they are going to ask YOU the same questions?

    That is the way the mainstream sees things;
    Male=penis
    Female=Vagina

    Didn’t your parents teach you the Facts of Life?

    Sue

  • Val

    > I think HBS folks are laying claim to the female body, not a trans-bodied.

    Of course. They are irretrievably transphobic…and I mean that literally. They live in absolute horror of any possibility of ever being or having been “trans”. Because trannies are icky, you know.

  • Felix

    I think you can be “borne transgender” – I reckon I was. To me, gender feels like an invisible(spiritual?) identity which may be expressed physically by certain alterations to my body. I honestly don’t see enormous differences between male and female anatomies – natal men have breast tissue, natal females have a clitoris which is identical to the glans penis in material and structure. Any changes I make to my morphology will be to suit ME, not any definition of how a man/woman “should” look. It may involve hormones or surgery but will not depend on them. This sort of transition went on for millenia prior to the infancy of SRS within the medical profession. People with “opposite” gentalia were honoured as whatever gender they claimed and IMO that’s a damn sight more civilised than the current stae of affairs.

  • leigh

    Sue ..

    Thanks, and yes I am very lucky to have found one. I don’t agree that most men are dogs though, I think there are lots of nice guys out there but most of the non-dogs are taken.

    … as for the tranny chasers ..

    I believe there is someone for everyone … god made those for the transgenders ya know 😉

  • Val

    Surgery also produces a trans body.

    Orchiectomy (did you ever have one before you got SRS?

    FFS (did you ever consider it?)

    SRS (…)

  • Sue

    I only lay ownership to what i was borne with.

    Those transgender people who won’t give up their male privilege and their genitals don’t belong in certain woman’s spaces.

    Those who give up those man things do belong.

    End of story.

    Sue

  • Val

    You really are letting all your pathologies hang out this evening, aren’t you?

    Monica Helms was right. You are a total fruitbat.

  • Sue

    Give me a break it is cosmetic
    Take some hormones drink some beer and you ahve the butt of a woman.

    Come On Marti
    You can do better then that.

    That is not something you are borne with.

    Trans Bodied?
    The Easter Bunny
    Santa Clause
    The boggy Man(or woman if you wish)
    The Tooth Farry.
    All the same.

    You think that just because you can make something up that makes it reality.
    Sorry not in this world.

    Sue

  • Val

    > why don’t you just admit your a Non-Op you love your borne genitals and the privilege that go with them, and admit that you don’t give a rat’s ass about what we HBS folk really think.

    And this is where the actual bigotry makes itself plain. To people such as Sue, there is no possible perception other than her own, and she feels infallibly competent to judge and diagnose the character and motivations of… well, just about anyone.

    To Sue and her cohort, anyone who is not now post-op is by definition someone who “loves their male genitals and privilege.”

    The generalization is as hideous as it is false, and its presentation here puts Sue squarely in the camp of the deranged.

  • Sue

    Good to hear you found a real one that you like.
    Most men are dogs….

    the ones who hang out with trannys are well…. You know…..
    Just not right….

    Sue

  • Sue

    Maybe you do
    in the big leagues Marcy is a first year Rookie.

    She still has not spent a single hour doing facial reconstruction, has she.

    Sue

  • Sue

    SomeHow i doubt you ahve seen very many bodies that are outside the norm.

    quantity is not a substitute for diversity.

    That doesn’t mean you know a whit about surgical technique, now does it?

    I shall answer that for you

    It doesn’t

    Sue

    PS…

    why don’t you just admit your a Non-Op you love your borne genitals and the privilege that go with them, and admit that you don’t give a rat’s ass about what we HBS folk really think.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    I agree, you won’t debate them directly, but you can debate others that spout their rhetoric as fact.

  • Felix

    Eastsidekate just said more or less what I was going to say. I’m from the UK so not always sure about American terminology but assume a “restroom” for women is public toilets/lavatories? These have cubicles so how on earth could anyone possibly know whether or not a person using one had a penis or not??? I suppose the urine stream might sound different but unless the person is in there to asault or spy on women, what’s the problem? Quite few feminine-looking FTMs use women’s toilets because we don’t pass easily as guys and some of us have (prosthetic) penises. We don’t wave them around – why would anybody else|?

  • Felix

    Eastsidekate just said more or less what I was going to say. I’m from the UK so not always sure about American terminology but assume a “restroom” for women is public toilets/lavatories? These have cubicles so how on earth could anyone possibly know whether or not a person using one had a penis or not??? I suppose the urine stream might sound different but unless the person is in there to asault or spy on women, what’s the problem? Quite few feminine-looking FTMs use women’s toilets because we don’t pass easily as guys and some of us have (prosthetic) penises. We don’t wave them around – why would anybody else|?

  • Marti Abernathey

    So the quote is right? You are fighting over “the female body”, “laying claim to ownership”?

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue, that isn’t cosmetic. Really, you should pull out a dictionary every once in a while. There is a biologic(physiological) difference between my breasts and a natal males. If I had breast implants without being on hormones, that would be cosmetic.

    Transgender is an umbrella term about gender variance, transsexualism is a medical term. I’m both.

  • Sue

    Since i have a Paleo-Transgender history. )

    what is your point dear?

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    Marci’s surgical expertise and her ability to identify a surgically created vagina are two totally different things.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Homework? Sue, unlike you, I’m a trained health care professional. I actually have done “the homework”. I see bodies from the inside out, so I’m distinctly aware of the differences in anatomy.

  • GASP!!! Do you mean to say I …

    suck dick????

    OH MY GOD!!!

    I AM BEING

    … paid a compliment?

    “Vast experience”?

    Hey, I knew we could be girlfriends!

  • Marti Abernathey

    I have some friends that are African American, but I do NOT pretend to represent them in debates.

  • Sue

    We have female bodies.
    end of story.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    1) There tends to be a massive amount of tokenization going on. One trans person says or does something they disagree with, and suddenly all trans people are the enemy, and treated with no respect.

    I agree. It’s akin to saying that all African Americans are lazy, because you know an African American that is.

    Again, we really need specifics. Is the argument that trans women with penises shouldn’t be allowed to use women’s restrooms? Because, that’s sort of what it sounds like, and it’s BS.

    Agreed. That type of argument is illogical. How can it not be esssentialist to say that anyone with a penis (or history of having a penis) is a rapist or a sexual predator?

  • Sue

    That is cosmetic
    How are you borne Transgender and what sets that apart from being TS where TS must have their genitals reconstructed?
    Please explain.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Actually
    there are over forty surgeons in Thailand who do GRS.
    I was shocked when i found out about that fact…

    You nailed the three that are known to the be the best…
    Preecha was trained in the west and improved on the technique he was taught. Suporn did likewise Chettawut i can’t speak first hand.
    He gets good reviews over at Susan’s Place.

    It’s true some have a ethnocentric view regarding surgery (only those in my country are the best) This attitude is flawed based on the fact that GRS is relatively common in Thailand. Most Thais have their GRS before the age of 18. The doctors over there get lots of practice. The culture over being Buddhist simply accepts TS people as people and “the path you are on is the path you are suppose to be on”

    They have a different version of the SOC over there… You could say it is easier however there is a catch. the gender/sex roles of women are not nearly as liberated as they are in the western world. Thailand is much more of a Male run society then in the west.

    Besides spending 30 days over there i spent a few dollars and read up on Thai History and culture. I didn’t want to make a fool out of myself while i was there.

    Many of the people who talk down about the Thai surgeons ether don’t want to go over seas or don’t want to give up the time. Some stateside surgeons will have you back on your feet and out the door in ten days.
    That is a little too short for me.

    It’s common for the Thai surgeons to make small revisions as the patient is healing to prefect the result.

    Sue

  • leigh

    Probably so .. after all he never tasted dick so he would’nt have your vast experience to go by ….

    😉

  • Val

    Yes, but that same idea – that a two-parent family is better – is made more honestly by other parties. The FRC need not be brought into it in order to have a productive discussion on that topic.

    Which was my point 2.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I disagree. For instance, they make the statement that a two parent family is better for a child, than a single parent family. In an honest debate, the truth of that statement is statistically provable. So is the fact children of gay or lesbian parents are no better or worse off because of their same sex relationship in the raising of a child. In debating these issues, it’s not to change the mind of the extremist, but of moderate.

  • Val

    Three points:

    The Family Research Council has never said anything of merit. Experience alone is sufficient to disregard them.

    There aren’t really that many ideas in the world. Anything that it might be important for me to hear, I can obtain from more honest and useful sources, without the baggage that always attends the words of those who work in bad faith.

    There is no “debate” with ideologues and fundamentalists. There is only conflict.

  • Val

    Three points:

    The Family Research Council has never said anything of merit. Experience alone is sufficient to disregard them.

    There aren’t really that many ideas in the world. Anything that it might be important for me to hear, I can obtain from more honest and useful sources, without the baggage that always attends the words of those who work in bad faith.

    There is no “debate” with ideologues and fundamentalists. There is only conflict.

  • leigh

    val…. comedy .. humor … get it? No ?

    … ok sorry, another trait of “true” transsexuals I guess 😉

  • leigh

    val…. comedy .. humor … get it? No ?

    … ok sorry, another trait of “true” transsexuals I guess 😉

  • eastsidekate

    A lot of these posts (such as the one at Margins) claim that there are substantial numbers of people that live as men most of the time, that choose to occasionally call themselves women, and use women’s spaces. I’m inclined to agree about what a horrible thing this is– it’s exactly what they say it is, a “colonization” of women’s spaces by insensitive people.

    But here are the problems I have with this:
    1) There tends to be a massive amount of tokenization going on. One trans person says or does something they disagree with, and suddenly all trans people are the enemy, and treated with no respect.

    2) I haven’t seen any examples of this actually occurring. What are we talking about here? Crossdressers in women’s locker rooms? Transsexual women with penises in the women’s dressing room? That’s sort of what comes to mind, and I’m not sure if it ever happens.

    You can make the argument that Lisa Vogel is free to exclude trans women (or any other group) from her private campground. Personally, I’m also willing to accept that (it is her right), although I will call it bigoted.

    Again, we really need specifics. Is the argument that trans women with penises shouldn’t be allowed to use women’s restrooms? Because, that’s sort of what it sounds like, and it’s BS.

    Rather than painting all trans people and all situations with a broad brush, it would be good to think about what’s sensible in a certain place and time. Then again, most of these posts and threads aren’t exactly steeped in nuance.

  • eastsidekate

    A lot of these posts (such as the one at Margins) claim that there are substantial numbers of people that live as men most of the time, that choose to occasionally call themselves women, and use women’s spaces. I’m inclined to agree about what a horrible thing this is– it’s exactly what they say it is, a “colonization” of women’s spaces by insensitive people.

    But here are the problems I have with this:
    1) There tends to be a massive amount of tokenization going on. One trans person says or does something they disagree with, and suddenly all trans people are the enemy, and treated with no respect.

    2) I haven’t seen any examples of this actually occurring. What are we talking about here? Crossdressers in women’s locker rooms? Transsexual women with penises in the women’s dressing room? That’s sort of what comes to mind, and I’m not sure if it ever happens.

    You can make the argument that Lisa Vogel is free to exclude trans women (or any other group) from her private campground. Personally, I’m also willing to accept that (it is her right), although I will call it bigoted.

    Again, we really need specifics. Is the argument that trans women with penises shouldn’t be allowed to use women’s restrooms? Because, that’s sort of what it sounds like, and it’s BS.

    Rather than painting all trans people and all situations with a broad brush, it would be good to think about what’s sensible in a certain place and time. Then again, most of these posts and threads aren’t exactly steeped in nuance.

  • eastsidekate

    A lot of these posts (such as the one at Margins) claim that there are substantial numbers of people that live as men most of the time, that choose to occasionally call themselves women, and use women’s spaces. I’m inclined to agree about what a horrible thing this is– it’s exactly what they say it is, a “colonization” of women’s spaces by insensitive people.

    But here are the problems I have with this:
    1) There tends to be a massive amount of tokenization going on. One trans person says or does something they disagree with, and suddenly all trans people are the enemy, and treated with no respect.

    2) I haven’t seen any examples of this actually occurring. What are we talking about here? Crossdressers in women’s locker rooms? Transsexual women with penises in the women’s dressing room? That’s sort of what comes to mind, and I’m not sure if it ever happens.

    You can make the argument that Lisa Vogel is free to exclude trans women (or any other group) from her private campground. Personally, I’m also willing to accept that (it is her right), although I will call it bigoted.

    Again, we really need specifics. Is the argument that trans women with penises shouldn’t be allowed to use women’s restrooms? Because, that’s sort of what it sounds like, and it’s BS.

    Rather than painting all trans people and all situations with a broad brush, it would be good to think about what’s sensible in a certain place and time. Then again, most of these posts and threads aren’t exactly steeped in nuance.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Even though I disagree with The Family Research Council, would it be wise to disregard something they say simply because of who they are? I think not. I think that type of thinking causes dialogue to stop and rhetoric to replace debate. My ultimate goal isn’t about being right, but about honest debate.

  • Sue

    Marcy Bowers
    cough!

    I have seen her work first hand.

    She needs a lot of practice.

    She hasn’t even done 300 surgeries yet her technique is still rough.

    It will be at least a decade before she has the skill Dr Biber had let alone three of the best Thai Surgeons or Dr Meltzer.

    I am not saying she can’t get there I am saying she has a long way to go yet.

    Unlike the most of the A-Team surgeons she has No Cosmetic Surgery Experience. I wouldn’t even think of going to someone who has not done facial reconstruction for at least a year, i would prefer two Like My doc.

    You show full well your lack of knowledge on the subject. Some of us spent two years doing research and for good reason.

    Sue
    🙂

  • Sue

    Marcy Bowers
    cough!

    I have seen her work first hand.

    She needs a lot of practice.

    She hasn’t even done 300 surgeries yet her technique is still rough.

    It will be at least a decade before she has the skill Dr Biber had let alone three of the best Thai Surgeons or Dr Meltzer.

    I am not saying she can’t get there I am saying she has a long way to go yet.

    Unlike the most of the A-Team surgeons she has No Cosmetic Surgery Experience. I wouldn’t even think of going to someone who has not done facial reconstruction for at least a year, i would prefer two Like My doc.

    You show full well your lack of knowledge on the subject. Some of us spent two years doing research and for good reason.

    Sue
    🙂

  • Val

    Watching Sue pretend that she’s making an argument is a lot like watching my brain get sucked down a toilet.

    • No offence, Leigh, but I think the problem is with your husband’s taste, not yours.

  • Sue

    Sarcasm alert…

    Nice way to side-step the issue Marti.
    Why don’t YOU actually do some homeowrk on the subject.

    Although as a Non-Op i guess that is one race you don’t have a horse in Now is it.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    I disagree. While it is a construct, it is one supported biology by fat distribution, secondary sex characteristics, etc.

    • Val

      > “Some of those fokkers were messerschmidts”

      And so we return to where we started, with no honest effort at anything but boundary keeping, and unilateral, categorical and prejudicial denial of any but the most orthodox interpretation of experience.

      No conversation. No query. Just accusations of delusion.

      Ok.
      Done.

  • Val

    You obtained your surgery in Thailand?

    Ah, then by Susan and Leigh’s standards, you are a wannabe.

    Game over.

    By the way, there are at least three “respected” SRS surgeons in Thailand. Suporn was himself trained by Preecha, who was also Chettawut’s mentor. They all have high standards of work – and ethics – and are thus the ones that most transwomen go to.

    Not because they’re wannabes. Not because they’re trying to end-run the SOC (I think that far fewer people actually do that than the fundamantalists seem to believe). But simply because it’s less hassle and less cost. Which you would think that someone like Susan – Ms. Self-Actualized Her Own Bad Self – would appreciate.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Maybe Marci Bowers and I need to go to Thailand to be schooled about real woman vagina’s™.

  • No offence, Leigh, but I think the problem is with your husband’s taste, not yours.

  • Val

    I’ll be honest here: I couldn’t give a rat’s fart about The Margins or anyone who posts or comments there. I would be as likely to give credence or consideration to Stormfront, or The Family Research Council.

    But yes… it’s obvious that in fact HBS/WBT individuals are specifically “laying claim to women’s bodies.” Of course, the rhetorical slight-of-hand they use to justify the position is that they are women, therefore they are claiming only their own body. A position I might even agree with, if they were not so adamant about staking that assertion on the implication that anyone who does not conform to their self-serving expectations is not what they claim to be, and is therefore an opportunist (or “colonist” in the lexicon of the oppressed)… and if that position were not obviously opposed to the principles of their supposed allies, the lesbian separatists.

  • Val

    I’ll be honest here: I couldn’t give a rat’s fart about The Margins or anyone who posts or comments there. I would be as likely to give credence or consideration to Stormfront, or The Family Research Council.

    But yes… it’s obvious that in fact HBS/WBT individuals are specifically “laying claim to women’s bodies.” Of course, the rhetorical slight-of-hand they use to justify the position is that they are women, therefore they are claiming only their own body. A position I might even agree with, if they were not so adamant about staking that assertion on the implication that anyone who does not conform to their self-serving expectations is not what they claim to be, and is therefore an opportunist (or “colonist” in the lexicon of the oppressed)… and if that position were not obviously opposed to the principles of their supposed allies, the lesbian separatists.

  • Sue

    Marti needs an education.
    The two men i was with before i settled in with my girlfriend said exactly the same thing, she also agrees with the two guys. Besides i have been with a number of women myself and my female oder is exactly the same as with the half dozen women i have been with. Oh nearly forget they all agree when they take me for a test drive there is no difference.

    Certainly some of what comes out of Thailand there is only one place to go over there and He is the most expensive of the lot and has higher admission standards.

    There is only one place to go in Thailand…
    Been there…

    Marti needs to learn that some of the US surgeons are just learning and have a decade before they are up to speed if at all.

    On a sad note..
    Few people who go for reconstructive surgery do their homework. I did and found the best when money and time are not of any concern to be Dr Suporn.

    I could have gone to the best in the US but who wants to wait 6 months to a year to have the work finished. when you can take a month off from work and have the work finished and come home with no complications.

    Sue

  • Sue

    Marti needs an education.
    The two men i was with before i settled in with my girlfriend said exactly the same thing, she also agrees with the two guys. Besides i have been with a number of women myself and my female oder is exactly the same as with the half dozen women i have been with. Oh nearly forget they all agree when they take me for a test drive there is no difference.

    Certainly some of what comes out of Thailand there is only one place to go over there and He is the most expensive of the lot and has higher admission standards.

    There is only one place to go in Thailand…
    Been there…

    Marti needs to learn that some of the US surgeons are just learning and have a decade before they are up to speed if at all.

    On a sad note..
    Few people who go for reconstructive surgery do their homework. I did and found the best when money and time are not of any concern to be Dr Suporn.

    I could have gone to the best in the US but who wants to wait 6 months to a year to have the work finished. when you can take a month off from work and have the work finished and come home with no complications.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    LOL. Sue, I have the right to say anything I damn well please.

    If you’re interesex, you really don’t have a horse in this fight.

    Most intersex people I’ve spoken with are offended by HBS, for the same reason as the commenter above. It’s a turf battle over intersexed bodies.

  • Marti Abernathey

    LOL. Sue, I have the right to say anything I damn well please.

    If you’re interesex, you really don’t have a horse in this fight.

    Most intersex people I’ve spoken with are offended by HBS, for the same reason as the commenter above. It’s a turf battle over intersexed bodies.

  • Marti Abernathey

    LOL. Sue, I have the right to say anything I damn well please.

    If you’re interesex, you really don’t have a horse in this fight.

    Most intersex people I’ve spoken with are offended by HBS, for the same reason as the commenter above. It’s a turf battle over intersexed bodies.

  • Val

    > Only transgenders buy foreign.

    According to your ideology, yes. Apparently the criteria for “True Transsexualism” now include the provenance of one’s genitals.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Autumn, I understand your reasoning for explaining the drama, but please, make this be the last comment about it. I do not want to get caught up in a debate about PHB.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Autumn, I understand your reasoning for explaining the drama, but please, make this be the last comment about it. I do not want to get caught up in a debate about PHB.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue, one more comment about PHB and I’m banning you. If you want to be part of the discussion here, you will NOT hijack it.

  • Ugh sorry, Marti, I didn’t see your post below.

  • So, um. Where does XXY fall within that two-gender system?

  • leigh

    I’ve known transmen that have been with transwomen and natal women, and they’ve told me that the vagina’s, while looking a lot like, they are distinctly different in secretions, smells, taste, and in feel.

    Seems to me you best try one for yourself. I have been told repeatedly by more than one person and in particular by my husband that my vagina tastes like any natel vagina… go figure!

    As for the doctor not being able to tell the difference, it might be due to who did the surgery. We all know that “Products” from asian countries are often detectable as knock off’s. I suggest looking for the “Made in Thailand” tatoo found just inside the vaginal canal 😉

    As we know, HBS women being elitist and bigoted bitches supporting republican values and christian attitudes all had their surgery in the west. Only transgenders buy foreign.

    🙂

  • leigh

    I’ve known transmen that have been with transwomen and natal women, and they’ve told me that the vagina’s, while looking a lot like, they are distinctly different in secretions, smells, taste, and in feel.

    Seems to me you best try one for yourself. I have been told repeatedly by more than one person and in particular by my husband that my vagina tastes like any natel vagina… go figure!

    As for the doctor not being able to tell the difference, it might be due to who did the surgery. We all know that “Products” from asian countries are often detectable as knock off’s. I suggest looking for the “Made in Thailand” tatoo found just inside the vaginal canal 😉

    As we know, HBS women being elitist and bigoted bitches supporting republican values and christian attitudes all had their surgery in the west. Only transgenders buy foreign.

    🙂

  • Sue

    Trans bodied is a construct that has nothing to support it.

    what biology supports “trans bodied”?
    sue

  • Sue

    Really Marti

    there are three ways to do reconstructive genital surgery sounds like you have only experienced one.

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    But, I wonder, does that affect the quote from women’s space/the margins? I don’t think so. I think HBS folks are laying claim to the female body, not a trans-bodied.

  • Marti Abernathey

    But, I wonder, does that affect the quote from women’s space/the margins? I don’t think so. I think HBS folks are laying claim to the female body, not a trans-bodied.

  • Sue

    and for some of the same reasons they would site you as male they would site me as famels.

    That is the blessing or curse of intersex.

    Pelvic opening Female
    Digit ratio Female
    Head size Female

    You don’t have any right to call an XXY female Male
    and don’t you ever forget it Marti.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I get that and agree… Val that is a great way of describing it.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I get that and agree… Val that is a great way of describing it.

  • Marti Abernathey

    I get that and agree… Val that is a great way of describing it.

  • Sue

    I am On Topic

    By the way what happened to the PHB comments?

    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    But I think there is an unexplored difference. Most of society won’t look at my pelvic outlet or chromosomes when deciding if I am male or female. The privilege issue isn’t one of sex, but of gender.

  • Sue

    Nice Try Val…
    I am not on some Ego Trip trying to push people into believing my dogma.
    I just live my life as a Post-Transition Female an HBS survivor.

    It’s You People who are attacking US for our right to believe and identify as we wish.

    Transgender is an idea not based on science but based on hatred of the two gender system that permeates all of nature.
    Sue

  • Sue

    Nice Try Val…
    I am not on some Ego Trip trying to push people into believing my dogma.
    I just live my life as a Post-Transition Female an HBS survivor.

    It’s You People who are attacking US for our right to believe and identify as we wish.

    Transgender is an idea not based on science but based on hatred of the two gender system that permeates all of nature.
    Sue

  • Marti Abernathey

    But I make a distinction of female and woman. I’m treated by this society as a woman, but if I was examined after my death, I’d be ID’ed as either a transsexual or male.

    When a post op says “my doctor couldn’t even tell”, Paraphrasing SRS surgeon Marcie Bowers, “You need a new doctor.”

    I’ve known transmen that have been with transwomen and natal women, and they’ve told me that the vagina’s, while looking a lot like, they are distinctly different in secretions, smells, taste, and in feel.

  • Val

    Anyway, on the original topic:

    > While I live in this society as a woman, the reality is that I’m male bodied and a surgically constructed vagina will not change that.

    I think of myself as trans-bodied. Certainly I have a male skeleton, genotype, organs (prostate, no uterus, etc), as do most other transwomen. But hormones and surgery have had a pretty profound effect on my morphology. And outwardly – at that interface between myself and the world around me which is the reference point for “identity” – I would seem to be more female-bodied than male, even if a bit anomalous.

  • Val

    Anyway, on the original topic:

    > While I live in this society as a woman, the reality is that I’m male bodied and a surgically constructed vagina will not change that.

    I think of myself as trans-bodied. Certainly I have a male skeleton, genotype, organs (prostate, no uterus, etc), as do most other transwomen. But hormones and surgery have had a pretty profound effect on my morphology. And outwardly – at that interface between myself and the world around me which is the reference point for “identity” – I would seem to be more female-bodied than male, even if a bit anomalous.

  • Marti Abernathey

    But I am male. I am a woman. I don’t see those as the same thing. If a future culture would dig up my bones, they’d ID me as male, by my pelvic outlet, skull size, and my chromosomes. How do I define male bodied? I think it’s a mix of chromosomes, bone characteristics and reproductive ability. Just because I have SRS, doesn’t change my biological footprint.

  • Marti Abernathey

    But I am male. I am a woman. I don’t see those as the same thing. If a future culture would dig up my bones, they’d ID me as male, by my pelvic outlet, skull size, and my chromosomes. How do I define male bodied? I think it’s a mix of chromosomes, bone characteristics and reproductive ability. Just because I have SRS, doesn’t change my biological footprint.

  • We closed down the comments because the name calling and community bashing was inappropriate, and frequent. I didn’t shut down the blog on my own volition — It’s Pam’s blog, we play by Pam’s rules.

    Because SoapBox (Pam’s blogging software) doesn’t allow for threads to be closed while keeping the comments available for view, we’ve been trying to figure out how to make the previous comments available for view. So, I made a copy of the thread’s comments with Acrobat this morning, and Pam is going to post the PDF via a hyperlink (or as a hypertext link) so that people can read the previous comments while not having the ability to add anymore comments.

    The difficulty we had there was a number of comments that violated Pam’s Terms of Service, which state:

    You may not post or transmit any message which is harmful, threatening, abusive or hateful. It is not the Service’s intent to discourage you from taking controversial positions or expressing vigorously what may be unpopular views; however, PAM SPAULDING reserves the right to take such action as it deems appropriate in cases where the Service is used to disseminate statements which are deeply and widely offensive and/or harmful.

    And going through the thread, we found one commenter had described transgender people as “misogynistic men,” “men in dresses or non-op/top-op F to Ms.,” and as “queens.” She also stated that people who have had SRS, but choose to retain contact with the transgender community, as living in the “transgender “ghetto.” That was deemed abusive and hateful speech per the PHB Terms Of Service. She wasn’t the only one who engaged in inappropriate name calling and community bashing by far, but her case was the most egregious violation of site policy.

    Leaving the thread open would have invited more comments that violated policy, so we shut the discussion down. If folk want to continue this discussion, they should go to forums hosted by people who describe themselves in terms of HBS and/or WBT, vice taking the fight to an arguably LGBT blog.

    Basically, I’d argue people who espouse separatist philosophies should probably consider hosting their discussions “separately” from folks who aren’t separatists.

    • Niss

      I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”

      I agree wholeheartedly about. It’s rather self contradictory… gender as social construction and gender essentialist at the same time.

  • Val

    What’s even more entertaining is that they cheerfully embrace – and are embraced by – HBS/WBT individuals, whose actual ideology is directly antithetical to their own, sharing only the single common point of contempt for “transgender” and everything to do with it.

    It’s clear to me that attitude – in this case the attitude of militant separatism – is a more fundamental basis for alliance than any principal agreement.

    • Niss

      I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”

      I agree wholeheartedly about. It’s rather self contradictory… gender as social construction and gender essentialist at the same time.

  • Niss

    I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”

    I agree wholeheartedly about. It’s rather self contradictory… gender as social construction and gender essentialist at the same time.

    • Niss

      Heart’s blog/comments have been linked here so many times, I’m not sure what the point is in giving more attention to them. The whole priveledge argument alone strikes me as antiquated and that territory has been gone over plenty.

  • Niss

    Heart’s blog/comments have been linked here so many times, I’m not sure what the point is in giving more attention to them. The whole priveledge argument alone strikes me as antiquated and that territory has been gone over plenty.

  • Marti Abernathey

    Sue, I’m going to tell you this ONCE, then I’ll just ban you…. STAY ON TOPIC. I didn’t ask about the PHB comment ending. You are silencing any debate by making the topic about what you want it to be.

    • The one thing that bothers me the most out of all this debate is the way people are dismissing others’ genders because they disagree. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the commenter to refer to trans women as “males” at all. And I really don’t like how “male privilege” and “maleness” is getting thrown arond as a way to undermine other people’s arguments. Perhaps privilege, but male privilege? I don’t think so.

      I’ve seen it here when folks call out Sue, and others, for male privilege or male-ness. I’ve seen it whe Sue talks about women who haven’t had or don’t want surgery as somehow being a less dificult, valid, or female experience. And I hate it.

      As for the biology argument, I might hesitate to call myself female-bodied, especially when visiting the doctor, but I actually don’t consider myself male-bodied at all. I mean, a male body does not look at all like how mine looks right now. How do you define that anyway? Chromsones? Hormones? Secondary sex characteristics? Genitals? You can’t possibly say that someone is male-bodied until they achieve femaleness in each of those catagories. That’s akin to the one-drop rule.

  • Les

    When rad fems argue that mtfs can never be women, aren’t they arguing that biology is destiny?

    I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”

  • Les

    When rad fems argue that mtfs can never be women, aren’t they arguing that biology is destiny?

    I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”

  • The one thing that bothers me the most out of all this debate is the way people are dismissing others’ genders because they disagree. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the commenter to refer to trans women as “males” at all. And I really don’t like how “male privilege” and “maleness” is getting thrown arond as a way to undermine other people’s arguments. Perhaps privilege, but male privilege? I don’t think so.

    I’ve seen it here when folks call out Sue, and others, for male privilege or male-ness. I’ve seen it whe Sue talks about women who haven’t had or don’t want surgery as somehow being a less dificult, valid, or female experience. And I hate it.

    As for the biology argument, I might hesitate to call myself female-bodied, especially when visiting the doctor, but I actually don’t consider myself male-bodied at all. I mean, a male body does not look at all like how mine looks right now. How do you define that anyway? Chromsones? Hormones? Secondary sex characteristics? Genitals? You can’t possibly say that someone is male-bodied until they achieve femaleness in each of those catagories. That’s akin to the one-drop rule.

  • Val

    Of course, activism has been proceeding quite nicely and will continue to do so. Activists of all sorts take plenty of heat, both from within and without, and keep on trucking.

    Really, it’s your own irrelevance that so irritates you, and drives your apparent commitment to gnawing at other’s shins.

  • No one likes the middle ground, that’s for communists.

  • It’s no wonder with all the infighting that goes on with all the ‘trannier than thou’ people claiming those who didn’t do things their way aren’t real.

  • It’s no wonder with all the infighting that goes on with all the ‘trannier than thou’ people claiming those who didn’t do things their way aren’t real.

  • Sue

    if y’all can’t take a little heat from those of us who identify differently then you then how can you expect to be ready for activism in mainstream America where y’all will see a lot more heat.

    However it is very typical of Autumn Sandeen to silence any opposition that hs what Sandeen does best.

    Sue

  • Val

    It is also a typical tactic, repeated over and over and over again by certain exponents of the “opposition” (or the home team, in your case), to escalate the argument to a point where the only reasonable thing to do is shut it down… and then claim “silencing”.

    The simple fact is that certain people don’t want accommodation or middle ground of any kind – indeed, they are very explicitly, militantly and vociferously against it – and their entries into this “debate” are largely tactical.

  • Sue

    I agree with you but the tactic of silencing opposition is one that the TG community has used a great deal.
    it shows a certain dishonesty when people no matter what they relieve can’t stand up to their opposition.

    it’s no wonder ti me that after nearly 18 years the TG rights movement can’t get very much traction.

    Sue

  • Why you say Sue?

    It’s not the freedom to say whatever you want and no one can disagree. Such a claim is the home of someone truly insecure and who’s arguments simply can’t stand up to disagreement. So when someone brings up a counter they cry foul.

    Or in simple terms your freedom does not extend over and interfere with mine to do the same.

    • leigh

      here ya go … 😉 ..

  • Sue

    As is typical for anything Autumn Sandeen is involved in the posts over at PHB have been censored for some lame reason.

    Why is it TG people are so afraid of criticism?

    Why are TG’s collectively insecure?

    I guess the TG’s do believe in freedom of speech, only for them not those who disagree.

    Sue

  • Sue

    As is typical for anything Autumn Sandeen is involved in the posts over at PHB have been censored for some lame reason.

    Why is it TG people are so afraid of criticism?

    Why are TG’s collectively insecure?

    I guess the TG’s do believe in freedom of speech, only for them not those who disagree.

    Sue

  • You are correct in that no amount of surgery or shaping can make someone some other than what they are inside. Yes, one can shift their mind state to accommodate some gender issues, but even then, there are aspects which cannot be over ridden. Otherwise, I would have remained Bob, and found a way to be a happier person. Back to the question, who owns the territory of womanhood? Or Guy hood? Each individually make that determination I for myself! And you for yourself!

    What ever The feminist movers may wish to probigate, they, nor the lesbian, Bi, or anyone can say they own exclusivity to womanhood. Anne Oakley was a lady, but to some very unlady like. Few knew her personal Life. In kind George Elliot, the author, lived a life that was outside of the percieved box called womanhood. Likewise, for the world of manhood, which I decided to leave and live as a woman. Note, I mistakenly said live as a woman, I meant as woman.

    For you, well, it is a matter of what you desire to be and others to recognize. That leads to another question!

    Q?: What kind of environment do we choose to inhabit? Does it support us or take from us? Most woman who work in the oil fields and out on the range are perceived as more man than woman. The first women fought to find recognition as women in the fire and police service. I can tell you though, that the first entries were treated like men, and adopted much of their qualities. Now, we see al flavors. And although Transsexuals are not fully protected, they can find acceptance and live fully as women, in almost any environment. Note! I did not say easily!

    In admission to your original thoughts, yes, as times, like this week, I am bombarded with the post guy syndrome. I was doing some repair work on my studio and had set up a saw outside. The guys on the high rise construction next door first looked at me as one of the guys. Hey, blue jeans and a flannel shirt! Later in the day however, they showered me with whistles and hammers tapping out for attention. And the truckers hauling steel would slow down gawking, blow there horn, and smile. (The horn on top of the truck!) So even though I was covered in sawdust, and can swing my own hammer, I am a woman. If anyone wants to argue with that, well, I will bring around a couple of the guys twisting rebar who whistled. at me.

  • Stellewriter

    You are correct in that no amount of surgery or shaping can make someone some other than what they are inside. Yes, one can shift their mind state to accommodate some gender issues, but even then, there are aspects which cannot be over ridden. Otherwise, I would have remained Bob, and found a way to be a happier person. Back to the question, who owns the territory of womanhood? Or Guy hood? Each individually make that determination I for myself! And you for yourself!

    What ever The feminist movers may wish to probigate, they, nor the lesbian, Bi, or anyone can say they own exclusivity to womanhood. Anne Oakley was a lady, but to some very unlady like. Few knew her personal Life. In kind George Elliot, the author, lived a life that was outside of the percieved box called womanhood. Likewise, for the world of manhood, which I decided to leave and live as a woman. Note, I mistakenly said live as a woman, I meant as woman.

    For you, well, it is a matter of what you desire to be and others to recognize. That leads to another question!

    Q?: What kind of environment do we choose to inhabit? Does it support us or take from us? Most woman who work in the oil fields and out on the range are perceived as more man than woman. The first women fought to find recognition as women in the fire and police service. I can tell you though, that the first entries were treated like men, and adopted much of their qualities. Now, we see al flavors. And although Transsexuals are not fully protected, they can find acceptance and live fully as women, in almost any environment. Note! I did not say easily!

    In admission to your original thoughts, yes, as times, like this week, I am bombarded with the post guy syndrome. I was doing some repair work on my studio and had set up a saw outside. The guys on the high rise construction next door first looked at me as one of the guys. Hey, blue jeans and a flannel shirt! Later in the day however, they showered me with whistles and hammers tapping out for attention. And the truckers hauling steel would slow down gawking, blow there horn, and smile. (The horn on top of the truck!) So even though I was covered in sawdust, and can swing my own hammer, I am a woman. If anyone wants to argue with that, well, I will bring around a couple of the guys twisting rebar who whistled. at me.