Carnival of Bent Attractions: Now Playing at Mombian
January 8, 2007
More Thoughts On The Gender Binary and Feminism
January 10, 2007

Playing Nice Here With Radical Feminists

31 Comments

  1. […] It was New Years Eve when I got the but when I learned of this post, and I’ve spent the last 13 days digging around the radfem blogosphere reading all the posts that sprouted from that initial post. One post in particular caught my attention. As the thread developed you could see each side digging in for the long haul. As of Thursay morning, I stopped posting there because I could feel the negative energy building, which started to wear on my physically and mentally. I’ve been thinking about why it was so important for me to post there after the post went extremely negative. […]

  2. NancyP says:

    Can’t I kick out the silly separatists from “radical feminism”? I predate most of the posters, in all likelihood. Or do I have to rename my outlook “systems analytic feminism” or “trans-inclusive feminism”? Or “anti-patriarchy-ism”?

    However, I am all for the binary, it’s how we got here in Networld in the first place:

    000101111010101000010111010110001101010 (no clue if this spells anything in ascii)

  3. NancyP says:

    Can’t I kick out the silly separatists from “radical feminism”? I predate most of the posters, in all likelihood. Or do I have to rename my outlook “systems analytic feminism” or “trans-inclusive feminism”? Or “anti-patriarchy-ism”?

    However, I am all for the binary, it’s how we got here in Networld in the first place:

    000101111010101000010111010110001101010 (no clue if this spells anything in ascii)

  4. theohzone says:

    Marti – good i’m glad that I inspired pissedness and inspiredness. Also my grammar was shite in that comment. Sorry. nice to meet you!

    Binary…..i’m so sick of that word.
    Can we start anti-binary campaign? Around the world? Stickers? Slogan? T-shirts? IF I come up with the design can somebody make the T’s ?
    Binary and gender language is not integrated into mass media. Surely there’s a way.

  5. theohzone says:

    Marti – good i’m glad that I inspired pissedness and inspiredness. Also my grammar was shite in that comment. Sorry. nice to meet you!

    Binary…..i’m so sick of that word.
    Can we start anti-binary campaign? Around the world? Stickers? Slogan? T-shirts? IF I come up with the design can somebody make the T’s ?
    Binary and gender language is not integrated into mass media. Surely there’s a way.

  6. nexyjo says:

    “Supporters of the binary? WTF does that mean?”

    it’s radfem speak for tools of the patriarchy.

  7. nexyjo says:

    “Supporters of the binary? WTF does that mean?”

    it’s radfem speak for tools of the patriarchy.

  8. “I don’t know why I was linked on this post but I certainly didn’t mean any hard. i just thought egotistical whining’s listing of events was amusing. if i’ve said anything you disagree with please let me know, i’m interested.”

    Actually, I was just pointing out the huge number of posts that I was reading. I think the actual number of comments I read that branched from the original post was something like 1,000. After reading that many comments, I have to say I was left feeling very pissed… and inspired.

  9. “I don’t know why I was linked on this post but I certainly didn’t mean any hard. i just thought egotistical whining’s listing of events was amusing. if i’ve said anything you disagree with please let me know, i’m interested.”

    Actually, I was just pointing out the huge number of posts that I was reading. I think the actual number of comments I read that branched from the original post was something like 1,000. After reading that many comments, I have to say I was left feeling very pissed… and inspired.

  10. “what’s the most frustrating, is that *most* women i know support the binary, yet most transwomen are actually quite gender variant in their presentation and behavior. as a percentage, it’s been my experience that women (and men for that matter) in general are the worst enemies, in that the majority of their members are supporters of the binary. trans people, on the other hand, have a much higher percentage of members who upend gender.”

    Supporters of the binary? WTF does that mean? If you want to get down and dirty, unless you pass as male and have a vagina, aren’t you a “supporter of the binary?” What exactly does a binary antagonist look and act like?

    I just went by a mirror, and I think I I just saw one!

    😉

  11. “what’s the most frustrating, is that *most* women i know support the binary, yet most transwomen are actually quite gender variant in their presentation and behavior. as a percentage, it’s been my experience that women (and men for that matter) in general are the worst enemies, in that the majority of their members are supporters of the binary. trans people, on the other hand, have a much higher percentage of members who upend gender.”

    Supporters of the binary? WTF does that mean? If you want to get down and dirty, unless you pass as male and have a vagina, aren’t you a “supporter of the binary?” What exactly does a binary antagonist look and act like?

    I just went by a mirror, and I think I I just saw one!

    😉

  12. theohzone says:

    I don’t know why I was linked on this post but I certainly didn’t mean any hard. i just thought egotistical whining’s listing of events was amusing. if i’ve said anything you disagree with please let me know, i’m interested.

  13. theohzone says:

    I don’t know why I was linked on this post but I certainly didn’t mean any hard. i just thought egotistical whining’s listing of events was amusing. if i’ve said anything you disagree with please let me know, i’m interested.

  14. nexyjo says:

    “What makes me so mad is the insinuation that we are upholding the binary.”

    many radical feminists i know believe that we support the patriarchal binary gender schema. and you know, some of us do. what’s the most frustrating, is that *most* women i know support the binary, yet most transwomen are actually quite gender variant in their presentation and behavior. as a percentage, it’s been my experience that women (and men for that matter) in general are the worst enemies, in that the majority of their members are supporters of the binary. trans people, on the other hand, have a much higher percentage of members who upend gender.

    the thing is, jerry springer is not making shows about us – he’s making shows about trans people who *do* support the binary. so that’s the message that gets out there.

  15. nexyjo says:

    “What makes me so mad is the insinuation that we are upholding the binary.”

    many radical feminists i know believe that we support the patriarchal binary gender schema. and you know, some of us do. what’s the most frustrating, is that *most* women i know support the binary, yet most transwomen are actually quite gender variant in their presentation and behavior. as a percentage, it’s been my experience that women (and men for that matter) in general are the worst enemies, in that the majority of their members are supporters of the binary. trans people, on the other hand, have a much higher percentage of members who upend gender.

    the thing is, jerry springer is not making shows about us – he’s making shows about trans people who *do* support the binary. so that’s the message that gets out there.

  16. little light says:

    Well, this Utopia thing is a lot of why I put up the Phone Booths post–to remind the folk who aren’t trans that before theory is at stake, basic physical realities are at stake–including our health, our safety, our lives, and our families. (Yeah, I started by complaining about my health. Guts seemed a good place to ground things.)
    It’s hard to remind people that whatever we want in an ideal future, people are in real danger and real pain right now, and they can’t wait for us to come to a consensus on the Grand Nature of Gender. We need a chance to carve out spaces for our lives right now.

    Incidentally, if you didn’t see it at my place, the discussion at Brownfemipower’s continued in a thread called “Shoring Up the Levees.” I think you might be heartened by a lot of the discussion there.

  17. little light says:

    Well, this Utopia thing is a lot of why I put up the Phone Booths post–to remind the folk who aren’t trans that before theory is at stake, basic physical realities are at stake–including our health, our safety, our lives, and our families. (Yeah, I started by complaining about my health. Guts seemed a good place to ground things.)
    It’s hard to remind people that whatever we want in an ideal future, people are in real danger and real pain right now, and they can’t wait for us to come to a consensus on the Grand Nature of Gender. We need a chance to carve out spaces for our lives right now.

    Incidentally, if you didn’t see it at my place, the discussion at Brownfemipower’s continued in a thread called “Shoring Up the Levees.” I think you might be heartened by a lot of the discussion there.

  18. 🙂 I fixed it. 😉

    The thing is, if you have a theory, live it. If you want to aim for Utopia, you better find it, and plant your flag. Preferably a rainbow flag.

  19. StacyM says:

    Oh, refreshing the page seems to have fixed it. How odd.

  20. 🙂 I fixed it. 😉

    The thing is, if you have a theory, live it. If you want to aim for Utopia, you better find it, and plant your flag. Preferably a rainbow flag.

  21. StacyM says:

    Oh, refreshing the page seems to have fixed it. How odd.

  22. StacyM says:

    You know. Something weird happened in my last post. The first two paragraphs were ones that I had edited out. Hmmmm… Feeling like a dork right now. 🙂

  23. StacyM says:

    You know. Something weird happened in my last post. The first two paragraphs were ones that I had edited out. Hmmmm… Feeling like a dork right now. 🙂

  24. StacyM says:

    “But we live in reality, not in Utopia.”

    Yeah, I think some folks are indeed aiming for utopia… or if not utopia, then some version of society that can’t possibly be achieved without a lot of social control and moral policing. I’ve seen a number of comments to the affect of, “Sorry, but we’re kicking you to the curb because you don’t fit into the parameters of our revolution.” I mean, Jesus, these are people’s lives you are talking about, not some tidy theoretical construct. There are so many transfolk who are struggling just to survive from day to day, and y’all are pissed because their lives aren’t marching in lockstep with your theory of correct radical struggle? How ethically empty is that?

  25. StacyM says:

    “But we live in reality, not in Utopia.”

    Yeah, I think some folks are indeed aiming for utopia… or if not utopia, then some version of society that can’t possibly be achieved without a lot of social control and moral policing. I’ve seen a number of comments to the affect of, “Sorry, but we’re kicking you to the curb because you don’t fit into the parameters of our revolution.” I mean, Jesus, these are people’s lives you are talking about, not some tidy theoretical construct. There are so many transfolk who are struggling just to survive from day to day, and y’all are pissed because their lives aren’t marching in lockstep with your theory of correct radical struggle? How ethically empty is that?

  26. I really do hate moral inconsistency. I find so much of it with some members of this community. Hate me? Fine. But be consistent!

    I do think gender and sexual orientation need a demolished. But we live in reality, not in Utopia. What makes me so mad is the insinuation that we are upholding the binary. The truth is we are the biggest demolisher’s of it.

    I’m glad to find people like Dewd, Amp, and brownfemipower. They give me hope. But as much hope as I have, it’s mixed with bile for the others.

    The new boss is no better than the old boss.

  27. I really do hate moral inconsistency. I find so much of it with some members of this community. Hate me? Fine. But be consistent!

    I do think gender and sexual orientation need a demolished. But we live in reality, not in Utopia. What makes me so mad is the insinuation that we are upholding the binary. The truth is we are the biggest demolisher’s of it.

    I’m glad to find people like Dewd, Amp, and brownfemipower. They give me hope. But as much hope as I have, it’s mixed with bile for the others.

    The new boss is no better than the old boss.

  28. StacyM says:

    I empathize with your anger. I too am a transwoman and I’ve spent many a night awake wondering what the heck is going on with feminism and transphobia. I’ve perused many feminist web spaces over the past several years, and by far, I’ve encountered the most transphobia in radfem spaces. It saddens me, because I used to identify as a radfem. Because of the amount of prejudice and hate that I’ve witnessed, I no longer feel comfortable embracing that label. I’m still trying to figure out why this particular branch of feminism draws so many transphobic people.

    There are still things about radical feminism that I like. I have no desire to let go of the more useful aspects of radfem’s analysis of gender and patriarchy. It would be interesting to reclaim these ideas and form a kind of feminism that mixes radfem analysis with transgender experience. This puts a big smile on my face because I’m certain that transphobic radfems would be pissed with us for “misappropriating” radfem analysis in support of transpeople.

    Anyway, I’m actually heartened by the general response to the controversy at I Blame the Patriarchy: there were so many positive, supportive voices that joined the fray. It was wonderful to see such a large number of feminists supporting transpeople and calling out bigots on their hate and irrational beliefs. The response contrasted so deeply with the hatred that I encountered in other feminist spaces, that I could not help but take notice. It gives me hope for the future.

  29. StacyM says:

    I empathize with your anger. I too am a transwoman and I’ve spent many a night awake wondering what the heck is going on with feminism and transphobia. I’ve perused many feminist web spaces over the past several years, and by far, I’ve encountered the most transphobia in radfem spaces. It saddens me, because I used to identify as a radfem. Because of the amount of prejudice and hate that I’ve witnessed, I no longer feel comfortable embracing that label. I’m still trying to figure out why this particular branch of feminism draws so many transphobic people.

    There are still things about radical feminism that I like. I have no desire to let go of the more useful aspects of radfem’s analysis of gender and patriarchy. It would be interesting to reclaim these ideas and form a kind of feminism that mixes radfem analysis with transgender experience. This puts a big smile on my face because I’m certain that transphobic radfems would be pissed with us for “misappropriating” radfem analysis in support of transpeople.

    Anyway, I’m actually heartened by the general response to the controversy at I Blame the Patriarchy: there were so many positive, supportive voices that joined the fray. It was wonderful to see such a large number of feminists supporting transpeople and calling out bigots on their hate and irrational beliefs. The response contrasted so deeply with the hatred that I encountered in other feminist spaces, that I could not help but take notice. It gives me hope for the future.

  30. Sabrina Star says:

    Amananta is my wife. Her views on this topic are very complex; suffice it to say she is not transphobic, though she and i do not agree on these things. (It causes tension sometimes. We argue. We make up.) The above was her first statement on the topic, this is her second:

    http://amananta.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/it-has-to-be-said/

  31. Sabrina Star says:

    Amananta is my wife. Her views on this topic are very complex; suffice it to say she is not transphobic, though she and i do not agree on these things. (It causes tension sometimes. We argue. We make up.) The above was her first statement on the topic, this is her second:

    http://amananta.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/it-has-to-be-said/