> I Thought we weren’t talking ?
Ah yes. Thank you for reminding me.
This string of comments is likely pasted on the office wall in HRC headquarters! Every clean cut, thousand dollar suit that walks by laughs and says to themself,”job well done, we have gotten the Trannies on the run!” And at the coffee pot, over dainty little scones, the laughter is uncontrollable. We too should save this string, carving it in stone. We can use it on the next tombstone as a memorial to the next transgender hate crime, and the many to follow………
Felix .. you seem like a nice guy ! ..you really do need to get some new friends though. These ones will stunt your growth! 😉
You know, with all the contempt I have for you and Sue, I have not once referred to either of you with male pronouns or called you a man/guy.
Here’s a quote from my article called “Gender Fundimentalists:”
“Speaking of chastising people, this has become the standard operating procedure for many who identify as WBT. If you dont have an aftermarket vagina or plan on getting one soon, then youre nothing more than fetishists or perverts. They also resort to calling people transgenderists, as if the word will hurt others like it hurts them. I have to really laugh at that one.
It doesnt matter if a person cannot get surgery for medical reasons, or that the finances are not in place. If you dont follow the strict teachings of those self appointed leaders in the WBT movement, then they are, she-males, transvestites, crossdressers, or just Mr. Ive been called Mr. Helms many times, which also makes me laugh, because I wasnt born with the last name of “Helms”.”
I really appreciate it that you constantly go out of your way to prove that I had it absolutely right all along. You are such a sweetheart. (Nudge, nudge. Wink, Wink.)
…as for you Monica Helms, as Vinny Gambini said to the judge in “My Cousin Vinny” …
I’m done with THAT guy”……….
“I’m also amused by Leigh’s ignorant harping on the suggestion that anyone who doesn’t transition early is somehow illegitimate.”
Never said that in this post.. so where is the “harping” ?
“and the only real thing they have in common with each other is a shitty attitude.”
Which shitty attitude would that be then ? would that be the one where I won’t allow you to dictate my beliefs or the one where you have no sense of humor .. hell you couldn’t buy a sense of humor. Must be difficult being you…
You must have me mistaken for Sue . . . “dearest.” (insert sarcastic tone.)
“I take it also that you do not believe in truly post-op lesbians?”
yes I do .. but how lomg did you want me to make this essay ?
I also never made reference to pre-post op homosexual transsexual males since that whole idea is as bizzare to me as the idea of a woman with a penis.
I Thought we weren’t talking ? I knew you couldn’t resist … 😉
So is your vagina … dearest
All the straight males who watch porn that I know (and that’s most of my friends actually)have said (in many discussions on the subject) that they like lesbian porn because it has no naked men in it. That’s it.
Just homophobia and a discomfort with male nudity.
Sorry, Val. I forgot. The other s-word shouldn’t be discussed.
So what’s the issue? I was saying everyone except Sue’s been at least borderline civil.
Next time ya want me to call you a radical bitch? Is there something bad in saying you’re being civil?
You can’t begin to count them, Monica? 😉 All go here, isn’t it?
> (or even made loved with)
Got my point across.
Nailed it real good, Val. I cannot begin to count how many post-op trans women I know (or even made loved with) who are happy lesbians. Maybe Leigh is repressed? She is definitely showing a bit of homophobia and internalized tranphobia.
You’re an ass.
I’m also amused by Leigh’s ignorant harping on the suggestion that anyone who doesn’t transition early is somehow illegitimate. The fact is that many of her own True Transsexual partisans transitioned in their 30s, or even in their 40s – and in some cases it’s quite likely that their transition was sufficient to Harry Benjamin’s standards but not their own ideology – and the only real thing they have in common with each other is a shitty attitude.
You make, as always, endlessly prurient, prejudicial and unwarranted assumptions about the private lives and bodies of pre-ops.
I take it also that you do not believe in truly post-op lesbians?
At least you have taken one step towards the semblance of reason here. The opening of your second major paragraph suggests that – in spite of your earlier insistence to the contrary – Real Transsexuals do indeed experience a variety of life histories.
excuse me?……..why are you continually dragging me into this?
I’d posted what, two, three times here? Once asking you respect my desire to be addressed as Cathryn.
Regarding the popularity of lesbians amongst straight men.
Actually from extensive conversations amongst my porn-loving straight male friends the reason for the popularity of lesbians in straight male porn is that there isn’t a guy on the page or the screen that they don’t want to see naked.
Most of them, once the subject came up were quite quick to say that this was the great thing with lesbians in porn. Other porn they’d be trying to look past the guy or ignore his presence, finding some camera angles uncomfortable to see because of the prominance or graphic nature of the guy in the image. With lesbians they could look all round the screen and not a sign of unpleasant male nudity would exist to get in the way of the comfortable image of female nakedness and sexual enjoyment.
So I’d say the popularity of lesbains comes from homophobia and the general discomfort of many straight men with male nudity.
Lesbians Lesbians Lesbians …
Everyone wants to be a lesbian. Guys actually fantasize about doing it with two lesbians, of course you knew that .. thats why they feature so prominently in sex magazines. Naturally, guys only fantasize about those real seductive lesbians that are hotter than Jennifer Aniston, but the reality is that most real life lesbians are not all that hot and certainly wouldn’t consider being some guys play thing and likewise the guys would soon lose interest too.
With Transsexuals, many of those that were heterosexual before they transitioned tend to keep their heterosexuality throughout transition and for some time into post operative life. They often consider themself lesbian, especially if they transitioned while still married or living with a girlfriend. After they become post op the marriage or girlfriend thing becomes strained and often breaks down. The person now finds themself alone and confused. Some partner up with other transsexuals, some find a real gg lesbian, others start dating straight men, some de-transition and many give up and live their lives in solitude with their cats.
With most heterosexual transsexuals there is a trust issue with men. That is to say they don’t trust themself to let a man close to them because it could invite unwanted danger. Some internalize their own male birth and upbringing and project that on all men, and some simply mimick women and say “all men are pigs”. However, for many post op transsexuals there usually comes a time when they want to flirt with men and even accept innocent dates from them. If the transsexual in question is passable and comfortable enough with themself they start to see men in a different perspective. This comes about because men present themselves in different ways to women than they do to men. In like, as the post surgical woman progresses further away from the transition phase and surgery, they also start to see the different perspective of woman to woman interaction and often feel less and less attracted to them sexually and mentally. The gays point to this and claim foul stating that the T woman had latent homosexual tendencies that are now surfacing. This is not the case.
To some extent, HRT and the loss of natural testosterone post surgically are partly the reason for this but not the whole story. Fear is a very big emotion and continues to rule the T woman even after a successful transition. If a wife or loved one is involved, the T woman will often continue to stay on the path of least resistance and muddle along as a lesbian for the sake of sparing the others pain. That doesn’t mean that the T woman will remain strictly faithfull because the lure from men that want to show this woman a good time, wine and dine her and even have intercourse with her, will still tug at her, sometimes for many years. Once the woman overcomes her natural fear of men the process begins and the woman, if successful is no longer a lesbian. She will look back abd realise she never actually was a lesbian, that what she actually was experiencing was her own fear brought about by the circumstances of transition. It was only logical that since she had not been homosexual pre transition, was not attracted to men during and for a period of years after transition, that she should have to consider herself a lesbian since there was no other term that fit her circumstance.
When I hear a pre op transsexual say they are a lesbian and they have no interest in men I think to myself .. par for the course. When I hear someone say that since they are a lesbian and since they have no interest in men, there is no point in buying an aftermarket vagina I think .. thats what a man would say. The person making that statement has absolutly no concept that this aftermarket vagina, as they like to call it, is so much more than a simple bolt on accessory, that it will in fact change their lives and the way they think in ways they cannot even yet imagine. They have no concept of that because one has to experience it for themself.
Does that mean that they should cash in their life insurance and go get one ? Heck no. What they should do is cash in their attitude that this organ is an accessory serving no other purpose than peeing, passing and stroking. The lack of this little accessory is not simply cosmetic, it effects the way you think, the way your body works, your emotions, your cooling system and a variety of other internal organs not to mention that big one, your sex drive.
This has been bought to you as a public service announcement from a 30 years post surgical, old guard, non- hbs, classic trannsexual woman.
Wait a minute! Can you hear the laughter? It’s Barney Frank and the militant gay HRC cronies; they read this stuff too! Are we the freaks they have portrayed us to be? Perhaps, we are not safe, not mentally balanced, not fit for public restrooms, and ….. not ready for prime time.
And we wonder why the Trans-community has the highest suicide rate? This place is unsafe!
Wait a minute! Can you hear the laughter? It’s Barney Frank and the HRC cronies; they read this stuff too! Are we the freaks they have portrayed us to be? Perhaps, we are not safe, not mentally balanced, not fit for public restrooms, and ….. not ready for prime time.
Silver spoon ? what are we talking about here … less than the cost of the cheapest new car even in the United States?
Its not like you don’t have good credit either since you were recently approved for a house.
I could take that statement you just made and cut it to shreds like you do to sue but I won’t. There is no need to because we both know a cop out when we see it …
now don’t we …..
I just don’t intend to put myself into a financal bottomless pit for something that won’t change my life that much and only a few people (like my doctor) will get to see. I don’t think it would be wise to go to a lesbian function or nightclub and brag about my new vagina just to try and attract women. It don’t work that way. I don’t like men, so a vagina is not needed there either. And, trans men are a lot more opened minded, so I’m attracted to them.
I have been working at the same job for 18 years, so what do I need a birth certificate for? It’s the only piece of document I haven’t changed. They have me listed as female at work, because it is an understanding company. Besides, it is against the law for them to ask about my medical issues. My doctor is a gay man who treats a lot of trans people, so he is in tuned with everything. And, I don’t plan on getting a passport.
I have seen too many of my sisters totally fuck themselves over financally to get the Holy Grail (or is it “Holey Grail?”) and they don’t recover. I was paying child support for 6 years, which screwed me good. I am back on my feet and back on track. Just because my track isn’t the same as yours or others doesn’t make it any less valid.
That’s the primary difference between me and all of the HBS people. I’m willing to cut people slack for their life issues that keeps them away from SRS. The only thing HBS people want to do is cut people down. If you don’t believe me, then watch Sue’s nasty comments after this . . . or, are you planing on giving me shit because I wasn’t born with a silver spoon in my mouth like others have?
Spell Check: “Harry” should have been spelled “Hairy.” Please save this to your files. Thank you.
So your going to get SRS basically when you cant think of anything else to spend your money on then ..
I am going to go easy on you Monica .. enjoy your new house.
Monica – that was totally unnecessary and rude.
I just pissed my pants laughing and now you can see right through them. 🙂
Do they sell it by the case?
I bought my rock last May, the 3rd home in my life and the first one by myself. I feel that it will provide me the means to get the money for SRS in a few years, either through tax refunds or refinancing. And, I have my own place, not renting. It is a beautiful feeling.
It’s good to see that you have a healthy love life. That is probably the most positive things I have seen come out of you. To be able to give love and know how to receive it is something many trans women have a problem with, regardless of what sex(es) they are attracted to. Maybe you can set Sue up with some of your rejects. (Dodge Ball, Sue.)
Hey! I dont live under the same rock as her! .. I got my own rock in a more elitist part of town …
so, are you a postie ?
Gee, Leigh, I like a little challenge here. All of this is really the internet version of dodge ball. You and Sue are so visible that all any of us has to do is close our eyes and throw the ball. We’re bound to hit either one of you, of cause you to come crawling out from whatever rock you two live under. (Dodge ball) Hell, you can’t sling a dead cat on the internet without hitting one of you two. (My apology to cat lovers.)
So your post op then ?
Well, bitch, my insurance has listed me as female for over ten years now. The driver’s license has had the “F” for the same amount of time. I was the first female member in the all-male national organization, United States Submarine Veterans, Inc. They wanted me to become part of the “Lady’s Auxiliary” because I was no longer a man.
The Democratic party recognizes me a female, because that was the only reason I got elected to the 2004 Convention as a delegate. They have to send 50/50 men and women, and in my district that year, they required 2 females and one male delegate representing Kerry. I was one of the two females.
And, every woman I have made love to considered me a female, because I knew how to treat them just like any other woman would. You might be able to “fool” a lot of people like you do, but you can’t fool a lesbian when you are making love to them. One woman even tested me by giving me a kiss. She was convinced.
You, however, need to lose some of that competitive male upbringing you carried over from you past. It would help.
well of course !! do you think me a slut ! …lol
Only “some” guys, leigh? 🙂
So, I guess you must go around with see-through pants so you can show off your AMV to the whole world. It’s the only way they would know you have one. Maybe next time, you may want to change the parts of your body that the rest of the world can see. You probably won’t need to carry pepper spray any longer.
“Passing privilege is what most people react to, regardless of genitals.”
Really? I reckon I have dated and slept with some guys that would have to disagree with you in that dept… course, they weren’t gay though ..
Many people in the UK have new birth certificates issued after they receive new gender status under the Gender Recognition Act 2005 REGARDLESS of whether they have had any genital surgery. Then, we’re a civilised country.
Her BC doesn’t say sex. It’s one of the good things about living in Indiana.
Consider yourself banned. You’ve pushed stuff here into the gutter for the last time. Neither Leigh, Susan, or even Cathryn Platine has been as vulgar as you have.
I am never an easy target dear .. I just let you think I am 😉
It has EVERYTHING to do with how I would view her… now I will ask you again … does she intend to have surgery? If not ..she is simply a male exercising male privledge to pass in society as a female… now answer the question please .. honestly!
Not necessarily ture…
You seem to forget your employer has the right to see your birth certificate.
Thank God for REAL ID.
You better check the use by date on that can of whip ass.
It’s about three years old. and flat.
Go to Wal*Mart and buy some more….
That is old stuff.
:p I was thinking more like PITA. 😉
where is the abuse?
No felix .. we don’t do shows .. we leave the showboating to the trans-gays … they have so much more experience at that sort of thing .. cant hardly keep them off the stage !!! 😉
Her Birth Certificate says what?
And what is between her legs?
Honey i live in the real world not Tee-Gee Land.
I noticed you are not answering my reply on Bilerico Why????
Can’t say in public what you are so willing to say here.
Whats wrong Don’t have the BALLS???
That has NOTHING to do with how she’s viewed by society. If you’re masculine and M2F, but have had SRS, society will still view you, most likely, as a male. Passing privilege is what most people react to, regardless of genitals.
I guess you can see I’m a little fiesty tonight. While making dinner, I accidently opened up a can of Whoop-Ass and as you probably know, it starts spoiling rather quickly and if you don’t use it right away, it will turn on you. Sue and Leigh were easy targets to find, because I knew just where to look. Damn, that was a close call.
Ok now .. I really feel that I breath life into this room .. I mean nobody said diddly until I posted something and now ya’ll cant STFU … !
Thankyou very much! Being a brit that would be a compliment as long as I don’t get to be queenie!
I see myself as more of the debutant sort 😉
That just goes to show you how ignorant you are. She has an F on her DL, and her employer or employees don’t regularly check her panties.
Unlike you, most people don’t wear (because they don’t need to) their genitals on their sleeves.
Thank you Marti..
Bilerico would never put up with it.
Marti can contact me at my email address…
That would be alright with me.
We can discuss it there Marti….
Or on your own blog.
You miss the point too .. does she intend to have surgery or would that put a dent in her sex life ?
“Passing privilege ”
Another imaginary construct of the Tee-Gee’s.
Get over it Monica.
I just don’t see the logic in saying because you’ve had surgery, you’re somehow more of a woman than her. She’s and her lovers are the only people that know her surgical status.
the Social Security department….
and with that the rest of the Federal governments….
The DMV in her state.
and anyone who sees her birth certificate.
Including her employer and who knows how many employees where she works…..
Just a few people Right????????
I have said all sorts of things on this blog and shall continue to do so. Is there an “old guard” themed show you would recommend I listen to via the internet? Many thanks.
I listened to this show (first time BTW)
.. more gay thinking…
This is a one sided trans-gay appreciation society that does nothing more than tout the views of those that run it and those that speak on it.
As a talk show its much the same as any other talk show that does little more than play to the demographic of the audience that agree with them.
Wouldn’t be so bad if they actually understood the real issues that the HBS and old guard transsexuals were talking about but instead they stick to the old elitist transphobic rhetoric instead of exploring some useful dialog.
BTW Marti .. just because your DQ friend passes well it doesn’t mean that they are or even want to be true women. I have met fantastically passable DQ’s that will tell you quite clearly that they are all man .. and wouldn’t want it any other way.
Your result may vary.
Sue doesn’t realize that she is setting herself up to be dumped by Cox if enough people tell Cox that she is a spammer and an internet abuser. I’m in the business, so I know how that works.
Cox Communications Consumer Affairs in San Diego is 619-266-5474. Leave them a voice message. Sue’s primary Cox E-mail address is firstname.lastname@example.org and her IP address (very important) is: 22.214.171.124. Call them and leave a message that she is an E-mail abuser and spammer.
LOL. You’re a royal alright 😉
This goes to both of you…cool the personal attacks.
I love this because you don’t have the stones or in your case the Balls to talk to me privately about this.
Instead you will come here and pound on your Harry Chest and act like some APE posturing.
You are really showing what level of credibility people should rank you at.
You don’t have the nerve to address me on Bilerico. because you know people will see you for you really are….
I have to ell you Helms…
You are a boil on the face of the Tee-Gee community.
Keep it up the main body of the GLBT community needs to see you for who you really are.
Start your own show instead of bitching. Or . . . listen to Rush Limbaugh, your narrow-minded buddy.
You miss the point. She isn’t a DQ anymore, she’s transgender. She lives and works in society as a woman. She doesn’t think of herself as a man and neither does society.
My point, as always, is that in society passing privilege is what people look at more than anything else in judging who is a “true woman.”
I just don’t see the logic in saying because you’ve had surgery, you’re somehow more of a woman than her. She’s and her lovers are the only people that know her surgical status.
Ya know sue .. they really should be happy we are here to needle them … when we don’t nobody has a damned thing to say on this blog !
Eh! we want royalties !
Like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder. Stay tuned.
Start your own show instead of bitching. Or . . . listen to Rush Limbaugh, your narrow-minded buddy.
Now that is a really respectful remark.
A pillar of the Tee-Gee Community.
I would have said.
“I am glad to hear you listened to our shoe. I respect your opinion of said show and would wish you to listen again”
Too many whiners who don’t do shit, including you. And by the way, you really didn’t apologize to Bil. You took the coward’s way out by the way you structured your fake apology.
You’re not really sorry for acting like an assh—. You never were. Like Cathy, you think you are always right. With all your constant need to comment on every single post on the internet, it shows a strong narsistic tendencies as well. I’m sure Autumn can recommend a good therapist in the San Diego area. I got her phone number, if you don’t have it. Maybe they can also help you overcome your autogynophilia tendencies.
Expected nothing less …. at least they are predictable eh !
Just to clarify ‘who owns what’, Live365’s TOS pertains to programming distributed through their service.
The show is not owned by them, and they have no legal rights to anything that was incidentally broadcast at one time through their system. That would be like you owning the show, simply because you own the computer it came through. Becky can broadcast this program anywhere she wants.
An offer of a podcast, which Marti is doing with Becky’s approval, falls outside the scope of QMO’s agreement with them.
Thanks for your concern, though.
you haven’t informed me to stop psoting here.
Send me an email asking me to stop Marti and i will
I always have said if i am not welcome send me an email since you have the address.
for future use… lol, now THAT is rich.
it’s a non-sequitur, anyway. According to L365:
If you own the rights to all material contained in your broadcast, or have permission from the copyright holder(s), it may be possible to exempt you from the Live365 DMCA filter.
Basically Sue is FOS.
per usual protocol.
That’s right Sue, I put a lot of effort into my show, as do other people. What you did put the show at risk, and does nothing to address your issue with Marti personally.
Ever since I started doing my show, I’ve always invited those with opposing and alternative viewpoints to participate. For me, it’s about the discussion, and it’s important that not everyone be on the same page on every issue. I make it a point to welcome those like yourself who don’t fully agree with everything I say, and a big reason why I asked Marti to be a part of it is exactly because we frequently challenge each other and I believe that helps make for a better, more interesting, and more informative show.
I’ve worked damn hard to get to the point where more people are honoring me and my show with their listenership than ever before, and I take that responsibility seriously. When someone like yourself puts years of work at risk simply because you don’t like something said on the show, I will do whatever I have to in order to protect myself, my friends who also donate their time and effort to the show, and my ability to continue serving those who take the time to listen and participate. I consider that both my right and my obligation to those of us involved in creating the show and to those who listen to it.
There are plenty of places to challenge the views you hear presented on the show, including on the show itself. I have never turned away a caller before, regardless of whether I or anyone else agreed with their view or not. Frankly, I don’t what else to do. You actions have threatened something I care deeply about for reasons that have nothing to do with me. There’s no other action I know of that I can take in the defense of my show other than to ban you from it in order to prevent this situation from occurring again.
You say you enjoy the show, but yet you attack Marti by doing something that risks the show existence and my ability to continue doing it. I fail to understand how this is a reasonable or effective response, regardless of what you think of Marti’s views.
What you did was mean-spirited and nothing more than an attack on someone you disagreed with, apparently not caring who else you hurt in the process of doing so. In my eyes, that makes you dangerous, untrustworthy, and a threat to something I put my heart and soul into.
Perhaps one day you will understand why what you did was uncalled for and wrong, but until that day comes, I don’t see how I can allow you to be part of it any longer.
I wasn’t attacking your show.
I know providers are hard to come by.
The alternative radio show i have been listening to for several years now. has it’s own content distribution service. the show ended being large enough they had to go with a national content provider. Their monthy distribution costs are enough you and i could live off of for 6-8 months.
In the early days of the internet we use to use Shoutcast and and a few of us would provide relay hosts. one relay host on a cable modem could handle upwards of 35 clients. We just sent everyone to the shoutcast page for the addresses of the relays.
The audio was good and few people complained of dropouts or missed packets.
I did want to make one comment your backhall audio (the audio over the phone) is good even on a crappy cell phone. It is obvious you put some thought and effort in bringing a good quality show.
I don’t have to like your guests to appreciate your show. While some don’t get it you have an understanding that diversity of opinion is a good thing that testing one’s belief system is a good thing.
I was somewhat disappointed to find the
Radical Feminists on the Transgender v. HBS Controversy closed Like i said some people don’t have the ability to deal with diversity of opinion. They have to resort to childish comments and lies to promote their activism.
I have made my point and have a copy of everything said on that page for future use.
You take care
I do enjoy your show and find it informative.
Then why attack my show? If you have an issue with Marti or anyone, take it up with them and leave me out of it. By involving my show, you put the show, my producer and everyone involved with the show at risk. That’s an unreasonable risk to saddle me with and it’s unfair of you to instigate it.
Also: There really is no other provider. I spent a lot of time getting people used to tuning in at certain places. What you are doing is hurting me, the show, and others you have no issue with.
If I am forced to try to find another provider, I may or may not be successful, but one thing you can be sure of is that you will never be allowed to participate again. The risk is just too high and it’s clear you cannot be trusted to play fair.
Sue, Dude your crazy… Oh wait sorry didn’t mean to use a general gender specific term to reference you, its the valley girl in me, and by girl I don’t mean that I have a vagina… you obviously relish the idea of Becky having to find another stream provider or else you would not have sent a letter to L365. Please take the advice I offered you on the show…
1) Get a soap box
2) Stand on it
3) SCREAM YOUR LUNGS OUT
If you don’t like that others arent talking about your issues… TALK ABOUT IT YOURSELF!
No need to try and get Becky’s show taken off just cause you don’t think she is properly covering an issue that she doesn’t fully understand as much as you!
I like your show i just would hate to see you have to find another provider for violation of their terms of service. I read it and am of one opinion you have read and your okay with distributing the show I can’t argue with that.
For the record:
I felt i was treated reasonably fair.
They don’t own your content. I have read the TOS. I’m very aware.
Gee, Sue, thanks a lot. First, Marti is a part of MY show, my name is on the door. So, in reality, it’s not only Marti, but also me they’re going to come after.
And yeah, I treated you so badly didn’t I? I invite you to call in and participate in my show, I give you plenty of time to state your case, and in return you cause problems for me and possibly even legal action. You may even get my producer’s account banned, which could mean the end of the show.
I always want a diversity of opinion on my show, but now it seems that offering you that opportunity is just too dangerous to myself and my friends. Thanks for teaching me an important lesson about the kind of person you really are.
Read the terms of service
you really aren’t very smart. Rebecca owns the content, not LIVE365.
Seriously, before you try and damage others, ya might want to know what you’re talking about. I was sent a copy of the show, THAT I’M A PART OF, by the shows producer. Since I also host Becky’s podcast page.
Does Live 365 Know you are distributing their content without their permission?
Just sent an email off to Live365.
I would hate to see it happen but you could by your actions get Rebecca’s show pulled.
If anybody wants the show they can buy it for a nominal fee from Live365.
Then they would own a legitimate copy.
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