About Work It
December 20, 2011
Kansas City Transwoman Killed On Christmas Eve
December 27, 2011

More Separatist Crap

I just read a sad little rant by a TS Separatist:

“I see the T in lgbt as being a dumping zone, a miscelaneous, really in my view, the T is a junk drawer, an oubliette if you will. The T can stand for MEN who wear women’s clothes for reasons of sexual arousal, it can stand for gay MEN who wear women’s clothes for reasons of entertainment, it can stand for Men who are still sorting out why and what and feel good wearing women’s clothes, and then there are the transsexuals. I really feel it is unjust. As a woman, I do not like being thrown in the “and other” box. My entire point is that discrimination against women who happen to be transgendered, is gender discrimination, and several people lately have fought being fired for instance or kept from medical help on the basis that it was gender bias, and they have won. All of the work done to secure women’s equality in america is the ground work we can stand upon, but we do not even approach it if we cower in the miscelaneous drawer. Most everyone I have met in America has been fine with being labeled LGBT because they take it forgranted they have no other option. They believe it is the best way to defend themselves, they feel alone and they perceive social infrastructure they can utilize to defend themselves, who can blame them, but this is because they do not fully grasp their right to be seen equal to cis gendered woman. If someone fired a woman for being a woman, that would be news and huge and the monster would be had, exceptions standing, and the same should be for women who happen to be of transitional gender. In effect, women of transitional gender are made to feel safe, when in fact they become invisible as what they are, just regular women, trying to live their lives. I am a woman, I am attracted to men, I have three little girls that I homeschool, I want to be respected the same way as the woman next to me, who gave birth to her children. I think the T is a misnomer. I think the drawer should be opened and everyone in it to be let out, to be seen for who and what they are and to be respected.”

The elitist premise of this burbeling is just stupid and should be disregarded. I mean that… the above statement is just uneducated, elitist, shame-wrapped, sophistic hubris. This is the wish to be a victim. It’s the continued whining of someone who hasn’t done their work around tranphobia.

I won’t even go into how crossdresser rights impact transsexual rights. I’ll pick that low-hanging fruit later. For now, by way of proving my above point, let’s just apply the author’s same logic to lesbians and gays:

The “L” is a junk draw; an oubliette if you will for butches, studs, fems and stealth L people who don’t want to be put under that umbrella with all of those stone butches. Stealth same-sex-loving women deserve to be respected and therefore the Lesbian taxonomy should be abandoned because people will just confuse studs and fems. Also, stone butches make women uncomfortable in the restroom.

Anti-Stud Facebook Group: A stud doesn’t want to be associated with certain other studs.

The “G” is also a junk draw; dumping zone, a miscellaneous that covers everyone from the leather daddies, bears, queens and even the down-low guy who doesn’t want to be put under that umbrella with the queens. What about the Republican who doesn’t want anything to do with parades, flags, “special rights” and wants to just live his life? This Republican doesn’t want to make a big issue out of his sexuality which, is just a small part of himself after all. This is a biological issue – like being born intersex; its an issue that he manages. This guy is just a “normal” person and the idea that he is forced under the same umbrella as all the queens and leather daddies is offensive to him. Because it’s offensive to him, all gay culture needs to change and reject the umbrella term, “gay” because he claims the umbrella term confuses people and, he asserts without evidence, is the reason he can’t enjoy full civil rights.

Don’t like the “Gay Community”

How many of us would take these lesbian and gay separatists seriously? This isn’t just a hypothetical question.

What if lesbian and gay separatists said that it was the normal* people (called the Mattachine society) who were the ones fighting for rights and that the movement was colonized by “screaming queens forming chorus lines and kicking went against everything that I wanted people to think about homosexuals … that we were a bunch of drag queens in the Village acting disorderly and tacky and cheap” (an actual quote about Stonewall by a Mattachine society member)? What about those poor Mattachine people who really, truly believe with all the shame in their little hearts that DOMA would never have become a reality had the normal folks separated all the weird gay people from their movement? Why hasn’t the Gay Borg allowed the Mattachine folks to redefine all of gay culture? Isn’t that just unfair?!?

Mattachine society’s Stonewall message

Many (certainly not all) TS Separatists are our down-low**community and our Mattachine minded people who really believe that rights are gained through adherence to the original Mattachine slogan:

*What you do reflects on me, what I do reflects on you, what we do reflects on the rest of the community, so act and be normal.

The Mattachine slogan is a beautiful example of mind of a bullied child. It is the naïve belief that blames the victim. It represents the warped view that the bullying will end if the victim could only say the right things, have the right look and tap-dance, juggle and perform fast enough. I say this view is “naïve” because it is a world view that wrongly believes that bullying isn’t about power and is instead about our ability to fit in. They mistakenly believe that our oppressors fear our differences when in fact, our oppressors LOVE our differences because they use them to justify the very power they believe adds quality to their life. While the oppressor might have fear, their fear is about a loss of control, dominance and/or status and is ultimately about a loss of power for the oppressor.

When it comes down to it, here’s the basic, broad-brush world view differences between Separatists and Inclusionists…

The Inclusionist World View:

  1. We ALL face oppression because our history or our expression violates cultural gender stereotypes.
  2. Our oppressors LOVE our differences and NEVER want our differences to be seen as normal differences (on par with differences which violate cultural norms, eg Look Who’s Coming For Dinner)
  3. Our oppressors use our differences to “otherize” us so that oppression becomes a social meme.
  4. Our oppressors oppress us because they like the power, not because they don’t like our differences.

The Separatist World View:

  1. Transsexuals face oppression because people confuse us with crossdressers and drag queens.
  2. Our oppressors HATE what they view as being strange and/or deviant behavior.
  3. Transsexualism isn’t about strange and/or deviant behavior; it’s a medical condition and has nothing to do with breaking gender stereotypes in our culture.
  4. Our oppressors will stop oppressing us if we can get them to see that we aren’t like crossdressers and that we are instead like intersex people.

We do not become normal by hiding our differences; we become normal by making our differences a normal part of life and that process begins with US. Being gay didn’t become normal by separating from the fem boys and butch girls and being transsexual won’t become normal by separating from the drag queens and crossdressers. There’s a reason Harvey Milk proclaimed “Come out! Come out! Come out!”

If a Separatist is reading this and takes away only one thing from this post, let it be this: Your true oppressors will always see you as being nothing more that a mutilated version of your original assigned sex. They will always only see you as a sad wretch that needs to be separated away… preferably in a mental institution. No matter what you do, you will NEVER, EVER be anything more than a deviant to them. They will always try to force this false meme into our culture so that normal, rational people think and act in irrational ways when they hear about trans issues. Changing our community history, changing our community language and creating strict regimented community definitions about who can and cannot identify as being a transsexual, an intersex person, crossdresser or transgender will NEVER, EVER do anything to change the way your oppressors view you.  You won’t gain a normal life by separating from what your oppressors don’t like; you gain a normal life by making your oppressor’s views abnormal.

You must come out. Come out… to your parents… I know that it is hard and will hurt them but think about how they will hurt you in the voting booth! Come out to your relatives… come out to your friends… if indeed they are your friends. Come out to your neighbors… to your fellow workers… to the people who work where you eat and shop… come out only to the people you know, and who know you. Not to anyone else. But once and for all, break down the myths, destroy the lies and distortions. For your sake. For their sake. For the sake of the youngsters who are becoming scared… – Harvey Milk, 6/25/1978

If the down-low guy doesn’t want to identify as being gay, then fine. If the stealth lesbian doesn’t want to identify as being a lesbian, then fine. If the TS Separatist doesn’t want to identify as being trans, then fine. HOWEVER, do not demand that the entire trans community rework its culture to suit your whims and unsubstantiated statements of fact.

For me it’s simple: we can either go the route of Harvey Milk or we can go the route of the Mattachines. I, myself, stand with Harvey Milk and with every other successful civil rights movement our nation has ever known.

**Down-low: ”Rejecting a gay culture they perceive as white and effeminate, many black men have settled on a new identity, with its own vocabulary and customs and its own name: Down Low. ” – Double Lives On The Down Low by Benoit Denizet-Lewis. I’ve used this as a direct correlation to the “stealth” TS who claims a “stealth” status as a means of rejecting trans culture.

cross-posted from Ehipassiko

Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams is a trans historian and pioneer in addressing the practical needs of the transgender community. She started the first trans homeless shelter in the South and co-founded the first federally funded trans-only homeless program, pioneered affordable healthcare for trans people in the Houston area, won the right for trans people to change their gender on Texas ID prior to surgery, started numerous trans social service programs and founded the Transgender Center as well as the Transgender Archives. Cristan is the editor at the social justice sites TransAdvocate.com and TheTERFs.com, is a long-term member and previous chair of the City of Houston HIV Prevention Planning Group.


  1. Renod says:

    wholeheartily support in line one (oops)

  2. Renod says:

    genderqueers and gender non-conforming people are people I wholeheartedly. Why hate on us transexuals who want to respected for who we are, not assimilated by transgenderists? That attitude is as hurtful as heterosexism, or homosexism, which is what is. It is the lgbt version of the oppressive patriarchy. It could be called the oppressive fascist transgenderarchy whih seeks to annihilate us ts as patriarchy seeks to annihilate all lgbt. It is social genocide of transexuals.
     I believe atht we should seek restrooms compliant to our ‘plumbing’ out of respect for women, but the the legal system should prosecute any gender noncompling person who is assaulted or intimidated in any restroom I openly support genderqueers, but refuse to be bullied into erasing who I am to please them.

    • Kara says:

      So you REALLY think it appropriate for a non-op or pre-op to use the male bathroom when they are presenting as female? Talk about twisted.

  3. Dale Reno says:

    More assimilationist 'crap'.

    • And can you please post into a reply wherein I assert that YOU need to be exactly like everyone else in the trans community or at a minimal, that you need to self-identify as being a transgender person?

  4. Dana Taylor says:

    I agree with the text that caused this rant. I don’t want to be shoved into an “other” box with men who get sexual thrills of wearing women’s clothing.  And I am sure that doesn’t surprise anyone here. 

    “The elitist premise of this burbeling is just stupid and should be disregarded.If you had your way, along with the other transgender activists, you would probably make us shut up if you were able. You try to demonize us in the hopes that others will ignore us. You do the same thing “your” oppressors do.

    • So, you agree that if a same-sex-loving woman doesn’t want to be grouped under the same umbrella that studs and stone butches are, she is no longer a lesbian? 

      Instead of focusing on my hypothesis, why not deal with the 
      hypothesis’ supporting logic? Are you saying that the basic world views were significantly off base? 

  5. It is true to a point. The "transgender umbrella" is too broad as it includes those with social issues (such as crossdressers and drag queens) and those with bona-fide medical issues (those who are in a full-time transition and THAT INCLUDES NON-OPS).. The problem is that a majority of transfolks out there are those who are going through transitions and they are being stopped by the flamboyant minority of weekend cross dressers and drag queens who are really GAY AND HETEROSEXUAL MEN and have no place in transsexual space. As long as we continue to include "gender expression" in laws and not accept a medical requirement, we will continue to be seen as a big social issue that can be easily cured. Most of you who are transitioning are afraid to call yourselves transsexuals because either (1) you are creeped out by the word "sex" or (2) GLAAD and HRC have brainwashed you to believe that you are really "transgender" (and that "transsexual" is an outdated word). Mind you, there is a place for transgender (crossdresser, genderqueer, drag) rights but it should not happen at the expense of transsexual rights.

    • [The problem is that a majority of transfolks out there are those who are going through transitions and they are being stopped by the flamboyant minority of weekend cross dressers and drag queens who are really GAY AND HETEROSEXUAL MEN and have no place in transsexual space.]

      This is an assertion of fact and I want to challenge your unsubstantiated assertion. Is it really that? If all these people went away tomorrow, would our oppressors suddenly support us? I've never seen this happen in ANY other social justice movement. Can you cite a case where this occurred… ever?

      [As long as we continue to include "gender expression" in laws and not accept a medical requirement, we will continue to be seen as a big social issue that can be easily cured.] What objective evidence do you have to support this assertion of fact? Give me a real-world example of how including "gender expression" in laws directly resulted in transsexuals being "seen as a big social issue that can be easily cured."

      If the movement was about nothing other than transsexual rights, our oppressors would simply focus on and attempt to "otherize" other various aspects of our community. Doctors who work with us will become quacks, those with testosterone damage will become undesirable, parents who allow their kids to transition will be compared to pedophiles. Oh wait, they do that already. Already they try as hard as they can, day and night, to anyone who will listen, the spread the meme that we are mentally sick and in need of shame-based "therapy" and massive psychiatric medication. *cough-Kieth-Ablow-cough*

      On and on it will goes… and will always go. Those who suffer stigma are not the problem, the pushers of the social stigma are the problem. You solve that problem by doing to them what black Americans did to racists and what gays are doing to homophobes.

      Are there blacks who if racist stereotypes? Are there gay men who fit homophobic stereotypes? Yes, but it's a waste of time, energy and resources to try to purge stereotyped people from our community. It just doesn't work. Look what happened to the Lesbian Separatists. Look at the damage they did, the wasted energy and the troubles they inspired… which still haunts us to this very day.

      I got an email from a cisgender Japanese-American who read my post and had this to say:

      "Hey I was reading your blog post. Most interesting. Lots of stuff I hadn't known. I would draw comparisons between the Mattachine Society and the Japanese American community around World War II. There were very few dissenters to the internment camps and a lot of the message that we must "behave" ourselves in order to prove we were Americans too. Then that generation tried to bury their shame. It's not until the 70s and 80s that the outrage over the internment began. Official apology and reparations came in 1990 I think."

      Normalcy is meaningless if you allow your oppressors to define for you what being normal means. I'll say this again, you won’t gain a normal life by separating from what your oppressors don’t like; you gain a normal life by making your oppressor’s views abnormal.

  6. Anonymous says:

    TS Separatists totally erase us transsexual genderqueers and gender non conforming people. I hate you for that. My being a transsexual is as real as your binary identified transsexual lived experience.

    • Anonymous says:

      Good point.

      One would think, by definition, given the currently binary nature of birth assignment that anyone who is genderqueer is, by definition, transsexual as well.

      • Kara Harkins says:

        In a similar vein I once hypothesised that transsexuals were under the genderqueer umbrella. Somehow I doubt that theory amused the separatists.

        • Anonymous says:

          Well, there’s something definitely queer about rejecting one’s birth assignment, but I wouldn’t want to erase the non-binary trans folk (i.e. genderqueer) by appropriating the term, in much the same way that I find it more than a little condescending and subversivist when gender nonconforming cis people use the term to describe themselves. Engaging in genderfuck and being genderqueer are two very different things.

          • Kara Harkins says:

            Of course, I said it for what I am guessing are the same reasons you had said the reverse: somewhere between gender theory and playing with the concepts related to boxes.

          • Anonymous says:

            You know, it’s rare that I spend so many keystrokes agreeing with someone. Thanks for that.

  7. Anonymous says:

    Don’t forget the separatist hatred of non-operative trans women. Surgery, or for that matter, internalized shame about what a woman’s genitalia should look like, should never be a precondition of basic human rights.

  8. I stand with Harvey and his thoughts. As an IS woman I may not be overly fond of the silliness present in some of the LGBTI community, I recognize it for what it is: "We are here, we are Queer… GET USED TO IT!". 'nuff said.

  9. This was  so perfect I could not have said it better.:
     ” Your true oppressors will always see you as being nothing more that a mutilated version of your original assigned sex. They will always only see you as a sad wretch that needs to be separated away… preferably in a mental institution. No matter what you do, you will NEVER, EVER be anything more than a deviant to them. “

  10. Cathy Brennan says:

    Lesbians are female. Your analogies are silly.

    • Kara Harkins says:


    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      As a lesbian, I find the analogies to be spot on. The definition-loosely- of an analogy is to compare two things that are different to create a clearer understanding of what is being explained. When I compare the female body to a car, I am not actually insinuating that it is a car, simply that parallells can be drawn between the operation and maintainance of the two vastly different things.

      So, nitpick if you must, roll your eyes if you will, and degrade if you choose… but please, think before typing/speaking if you could.

      A lesbian who gets the point

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Dear Charley – What is the point, exactly? Transsexual women are annoyed at being grouped in with the transgender umbrella. I don't blame them for that. Transsexual women are female-identified, and want to be identified as women. Many in the transgender umbrella are NOT female-identified and have no interest in changing sex. Lesbians are female. A butch lesbian is just as female as a nonbutch lesbian. You get doggie biscuits for being a good Gay, but points off for following the logic of the analogy.

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan "A good gay"?? Please, spare me your condescension. The point is that separatists attitudes are for the individual, not the community. The author is pointing out that, yes, there are some gay men and lesbians who feel that they don't belong in the same group as others, but that is them. Not the community as a whole.

      As a lesbian who just happens to be in love with a transwoman, (Yeah, I know a bit more about trans rights and issues than you assumed when you decided to label me as just another sympathetic lesbian ally,) I could do the same, but I do not. Others insist that I should not be included in the L because I don't discount Transwomen as women. So, you are saying that I should be allowed to be excluded from the L because they don't want to have their precious letter associated with me? It is the same principal. Wishing to disband the entire community on the whims of just one person is asinine and defeats progress. I know plenty of trans people, and none of them feel this way. I do more work in LGBT, particularly TS, advocacy in my everyday actions and how I live my life than most people could ever know. So the point is just this: Seperate if you want, but don't expect everyone to do it too.

      Oh, and FYI- Anybody (Discounting F2M,) under the T is female identified to some extent. They *ALL* embrace their femininty, even if not full time or for different reasons. Even if they never intend to changes genders. Some transsexuals never intend to have surgery (A good portion can't for medical reasons,) and they are still counted under the T. Are you saying they shouldn't be allowed because in your eyes they aren't "real" transwomen? Seriously, think before you talk. Not everyone on here is as uneducated and afraid of internet hard-asses as you seem to think.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Your personal story matters not to me in discussing a political or legal issues. Everyone has a personal story. Femininity doesn't equal female. I am amused that you seem to think I have any thoughts about internet hard asses (and I have no idea what that means).

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Also, you say: "The author is pointing out that, yes, there are some gay men and lesbians who feel that they don't belong in the same group as others, but that is them." I think the author is talking about the T, not the L or the G. She got this alleged email from a post by Denise Norris from a Facebook group called Transgender – reboot (or something like that). Look it up.

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan Personal stories always matter. Look up Ethos, Pathos and Logos. It points to the fact that I have the authority to speak on the issues.

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan In the article, she specifically lists examples of L and G. Using the original posts wording to support her claims. Did you even read the whole thing?

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Personal stories matter to you and your loved ones. Your personal stories don't give you any special knowlege. I am not questioning your authority to speak. Speak away!

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Yes. There is no similar fight among Ls, though. Another way the analogy is flawed.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Thanks for bringing that up!

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan Yes, there is a similar fight! As I pointed out, I am repeatedly told that I am not a "real" lesbian because I date a transwoman. Just because you don't experience the fight doesn't mean it isn't happening.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      I am not sure I agree with you that that's a similar fight. But, that's annoying for you, I am sure.

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan It is exactly the same! I self-identify under the L and I am being told it is invalid because other people under that letter don't want to have me associated with them.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      From a legal perspective, which is basically all I care about, it's not the same. You would be able to access sexual orientation protections (assuming they existed where you live) based on s.o. or perceived s.o. Many of my friends in the T community are irritated about the overbroad umbrella because they see some of the communities under the T as an obstacle to legislative or litigation progress. Whether or not that's true isn't my issue.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Also, as a lesbian, I would assume you would be used to random assholes telling you all about yourself. I know I am. Screw them!

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan The post wasn't about legal issues. If that is your stance, so be it, but the rant had nothing to do with legality and only mentioned respect. And people who want to block rights use any reason they can to block them. Hate will always find a vehicle. But if you want to justify exclusion based on "legal" reasons, so be it. You are just doing the same thing we accuse the straight community of doing.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      It doesn't disrespect trans women to acknowledge difference.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      I have written about this here: http://bugbrennan.com/2011/12/14/difference-exists/ and in other posts on that blog if you want to read them.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Also, what is the straight community and what do we accuse them of doing?

    • No Anodyne says:

      Anyone who disagrees with me is a hater. And phobic of whatever my I-dentity is. Did I get that about right Charley? You're a hater because you're arguing with lesbians. You're lesbophobic because you dismiss the very important personal experiences of lesbians. All of us can play that game ad nauseum. It's a race to the mostest opresstest ever award. No doubt trans will win that race and leave lesbians in the dust.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      And a boring game it is. Figuring out laws that work for everyone is much more fun (and productive).

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      No Anodyne I hate no one or nothing. And I don't argue or fight with them. I simply pointed out that it was something that has been said to me many times and it is silly. I have not dismissed anyone's experiences, in fact, I blatantly stated that it is the individuals choice. However, I did say that it is a bad idea to force one persons ideal onto the entire community, and I stand by that. And being a lesbian, I am anything *but* lesbophobic. I am, in fact, not claiming anyone is phobic of anything. If you can point out one place I have, I will give you both the doggie-treats that Cathy so generously offered to me. I never said they had to agree with me, just find it funny that they discount me. I never claimed to be opressed, nor would I. In fact, a lot of transwomen have been angry because I also defend lesbians who won't date transwomen… As I said, it is all personal taste. I never would have imagined I'd have fallen for a transwoman with as adamantly as I clung to my lesbian identity, but doing so has not changed my identity… just altered it's percieved paradigms. But, if it makes you sleep better at night to think I am all these things, have at it. Some people just need to assume that everyone is out to fight them, and I am not.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      It is "a bad idea to force one persons ideal onto the entire community" – which, going beyond the original blog post, is EXACTLY what's happened to lesbians. And Charley, you were kind of snotty to me, which I think is what No Anodyne was getting at. Of course, I'm used to people being snotty to me when all they have is personal stories and feelings. Have a great day!

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Cathy Brennan you were snotty with your "doggie-biscuit" and "good gay" comments, hun. And as for all I have is personal stories and feelings, I have been working with the trans community for years and am in school getting my degree in psychology with a specialty in transgender issues, but again, think what you will.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Re-read the thread and the order of things. Good for you on being schooled.

    • No Anodyne says:

      I'm sorry to hear you aren't working on issues important to lesbians and women, Charley. I really am.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      You stated: "So, nitpick if you must, roll your eyes if you will, and degrade if you choose… but please, think before typing/speaking if you could." That's snotty. Also, wrong.

    • No Anodyne says:

      Among the issues that are important to lesbians and women, transitioning isn't even in the top 50.

    • Cathy, it's interesting though, that you want those who identify as women to be subject to definitions of some cis women…

      I refuse to let my womanhood be demarcated by person or procedure and I'm insulted at your attempts to reify the meme of 'sappho by surgery,' as is my girlfriend.

    • No Anodyne says:

      Yes, how dare 50% of the world's population get to define their very own experience that they have from birth when .01% can do it so much better for us. That makes perfect sense.

    • NA:

      One, I've had my experience from birth, as have other trans women.

      Two, the incidence of transition is at least four times that high, and the incidence of transsexuality is, at the lower bound, 1% of the population.

      Three, the prejudices of the majority do not trump the rights of the minority to dignified treatment.

      And finally, just because you have degendered women via your willfully ignorant tautology of birth assignement does not mean that Charley isn't working on issues that are important to lesbians and women.

    • Kara Harkins says:

      Cathy Brennan Please do not try to speak for all transsexuals. You are giving the rest of us a bad name.

    • Charley Sheri Wanamaker says:

      Valerie Keefe Well said. I gave up arguing with these two. I do my work in many places, but serve those who are most under-represented. I spend most of my free time volunteering for ALL LGBT rights, but do take a shine to any cause that is Trans oriented.

      (As always, this next comment will most likely be as unpopular with some as it always is when I defend my choice to focus my advocacy on Trans issues, but oh well!) As a lesbian, it shames me to admit that most of my LGB counterparts are genuinely more interested in marriage rights than the basic safety and rights that should be held by the T portion of the alphabet. I stand up every day for my trans family. I openly declare that, when it comes down to brass tacks, I will fight for trans rights and protections any day over marriage. That may he a big step that needs to come soon, but THIS is a HUGE REQUIREMENT that MUST HAPPEN NOW!!!

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Kara – I am not speaking for transsexuals. I speak for myself. Oh, and females. And female-identified people.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      I wish some of you would do the same.

    • Cathy Brennan, being female, and thus, by definition, female identified. (Anything else being simply a pastiche of a female) I tend to speak for those women who are angered by the smug assertion that external morphology is more important than internal morphology.

      Quite frankly, the arguments that try to other trans women from cis women when it comes to womanhood are utterly superficial.

    • Kara Harkins says:

      Cathy Brennan "Kara – I am not speaking for transsexuals. I speak for myself. Oh, and females. And female-identified people."

      So by that logic I am not female? go to hell.

    • Martha Abernathy says:

      Cathy Brennan yes,all transsexual women are annoyed at being grouped in with the Transgender umbrella… except the ones who don't (like me) that can't actually BE transsexual women, because they don't fit under your "umbrella".

      I'm not saying this to you, really. It's for anyone that wonders on this post. Saying it to you is wasting my breath. Sandy Stone was right, saying:

      “The difference today being that now we as transsies have a voice, and we can speak back from a position of power. That’s the only thing that’s changed, as far as I’m concerned. Hate is always with us and always will be. Ignorance will always be with us. People are always going to be afraid of things they don’t know or understand.”

      “The difference is that we have more ways to speak back to that now. I think also we have more of an understanding of how hate works. I think more of us understand now that you can’t engage hate with reason, even when hate presents itself in the guise of reason. If you try to reason back, you’re wasting your time. What you need is to build your power base.”

    • Kara Harkins says:

      Martha Abernathy True, they redefine transsexualism not to be about a discrepancy between gender and sex for which reassignment is sought (although in many cases not fully achieved for reasons beyond the person's control: finances, medical history, and so on). Instead it gets defined as following the party line and the person concerned is defined as, against their own self-definition, not a transsexual to preserve their ideological purity (almost Godwinned that). Of course, that brings up 2 points:

      1) If they are not willing to respect the self-definitions of others why should anyone respect theirs? Not just in the TG community, but everyone else in the world? They completely miss that someone looking to attack one of us will not care about self-definitions and T* politics.

      2) I wonder if they have thought of it in terms of logic (using Venn diagrams)? If someone not a transsexual is transgendered does that not put a lie to their entire premise? Transsexuals would have to be a subset of transgender for that to happen. If their contention is that TS is not a subset of TG then they are not thinking too far ahead in the chess game they want to play.

    • Cathy Brennan says:

      Martha Abernathy it ain't my umbrella. The GLBT Movement fails lesbians. You can have it.

    • Yes and comparing the roundness of an apple and orange isn't logically correct because an apple is red. *facepalm*

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