Berlin Authorities Endorse Forced Psychiatric Treatment of a Transsexual Girl
April 2, 2012
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April 2, 2012

I’m Calling it: the Death of the TS Separatist Movement

I’m going to call it: the TS Separatist movement – as it has existed over the past 5 years – is dead. The foundational falsehoods upon which TS Separatism was built have been exposed and thus, destroyed.  Furthermore, in an ironic twist, it’s been shown that the guy HBSers (a subset of the TS Separatist group) named themselves after didn’t actually think one could transition from one sex to another. Practically all Separatist opinion leaders have moved on to (hopefully) do better things with their time and energy… and I wish them well! The only ones left seem to be the young earth creationists of the trans world:

Ashley “I’m Colonized” Love: It’s a conspiracy! All facts are faked!

The Separatists who are left seem to represent the JustJennifer/RadFem/Nick Chaleunphone/Ashley Love contingent. They are the remaining vanguard of a movement which now finds itself without a coherent  narrative. Here’s a quick review of the Separatist mythical fact claims which have been objectively busted:

  • The colonization of transsexuals meme: Busted! 1
  • The transgender was an invention of the 1990s meme: Busted! 2
  • The transgender was coined by Virginia Prince meme: Busted! 3
  • The transgender came from transgenderist meme: Busted! 4
  • The transgender originally meant crossdresser meme: Busted! 5
  • The there was no trans community before the 1990s meme: Busted! 6
  • The as long a transgender exists, progress can’t be made meme: Busted! 7
  • The before the 1990s, transsexuals lived a problem-free life meme: Busted! 8
  • The umbrella terms were an invention of the 1990s meme: Busted! 9
  • The transgender was invented by a Commie in the 1990s meme: Busted! 10
  • The there’s no such thing as a non-op transsexual meme: Busted! 11
  • The Non-transsexual trans folk pose a rape risk to women in the restroom and/or Gender Identity protections make women unsafe meme: Busted! 12

The above memes were the narrative engine driving the Separatist movement. As it turns out, that engine was clearly running on nothing but BS. So where do the TS Separatists go from here? I predict that if they choose to carry on, they will fall into 1 of 2 broad narrative factions:

  • Deny! Deny! Deny! I-CAN’T-HEAR-YOU! LALALALALALA! Some will simply pretend that the truth is not the truth (I predict Ashley Love will take this course)  and/or that any/all evidence which disproves their narrative will be asserted to have been faked. Therefore, evidence disproving the narrative will magically become evidence supporting the idea of a conspiracy against transsexual identity. History – the centerpiece of all the TS Separatist arguments over the past 5 years – will now become somehow irrelevant. They’ll argue that this is today – which has nothing to do with yesterday and “transgender” is evil. How did it become evil? It just did. Why is it evil? Just because… that’s why! The imagined horror of “transgender” will become a matter of faith and dogma.

Ashley Love: Being called transgender is assault and sexual objectification in the same way that being called human is also be assault and sexual objectification since “gender variants” are also grouped under the human umbrella.

  • Retooled the narrative: Now that it turns out “transgender” originally referred to surgical transsexuals at a time when “transsexual” was, itself, an umbrella term inclusive of crossdressers, some TS Separatists will become TG Separatists. The narrative will be that transgender was originally a transsexual identity and that it was colonized by crossdressers.  Never mind that by 1974, “transgender” was being used as an umbrella term in the US and Britain. The story will become that an international conspiracy of colonization occurred much earlier than the 1990s and that the entire early 70s colonization process must have happened within just a few years. They’ll, of course, ignore that the first use of a transsexual word was used to reference  crossdressers in 1915. They’ll ignore the demonstrable fact that “transsexual” was changed (around 1980) to exclude all crossdressers who had, until then, been explicitly included in what it meant to be transsexual. They’ll choose to pretend that this would not, in fact, mean that – in the very context favored by TS Separatists over the part 5 years – there was indeed a colonization; just one of crossdresser identity by transsexuals and not the other way around. Yes, all of that will be ignored because in this version of reality, only transsexuals True TranssexualsTM can be the special victims of a global conspiracy.

History and definition aren’t relevant in discussion about facts and definitions! I’m offended! “I know what’s going on. I’m not dumb.”

All that’s left for TS Separatists to do is become the trans equivalent of  fringe conspiracy folks (like birthers) or the young earth creationists who believe what they believe because their belief tells them to believe. I think folks will want to cling to having faith in TS Separatists dogma because I think the phony victim narrative will be too irresistible for some. I suspect that for some, the victim narrative has become part of their self-identity by now. Take away the victim narrative and who are they as a person who’s trans? What does it mean to be trans when a significant portion of what they knew about being trans turned out to be wrong?

In any event, I expect the “I’m offended by transgender” meme to continue in some form. Never mind that they have nothing to base their preference on but preference alone; they’ll become like those white Irish-American people who claim offense if they’re referred to as caucasian  instead of “Irish” or worse, “Celtic” (BTW – my father was Irish).
A Post-Mortem

For years now, TS Separatists have told transsexuals that they’ve somehow been wronged, that somehow their identity has been forcibly taken from them. They’ve asserted (without evidence) that as long as “transgender” exists, the lives of transsexuals wouldn’t get better. In this way – at least on an emotional level – rejecting “transgender” felt as if we transsexuals we doing something to make things right… something empowering. When faced with two choices…

1.) Try to gain empowerment by rejecting a term: Become normal by contrasting transsexuals against what you assert to not be normal. You’re plight isn’t your fault; crossdressers are to blame. In the 1950s and 60s, life was great for transsexuals until the crossdressers came along and colonized your identity. You’re a victim. You should feel victimized and you should tell others that you’ve been victimized. You should feel angry. All you need do to set everything right and become radical – special – is to repeat these memes to others from behind a computer screen.

2.) Try to gain empowerment through blood, sweat and tears: Work with people you might not like and constantly out yourself to political and social systems in your effort to promote equality. Commit to, at times, being the most unpopular person in a room full of uncomfortable people in your effort to promote real equality. Invest hours, days and weeks into organizing successful social justice campaigns. Meet your representatives and become involved in the political process… and for your efforts, become a possible target for anti-trans hyperbole while being branded a drone working for a TG Borg conspiracy; an effigy to be openly mocked by transsexuals who chose Choice #1.

A special, select group of TS Separatist internet bullies who don’t care about facts and dialogue.

… which choice seemed more attractive?  Which offered a special status and immediate gratification? If all I have to do to feel empowered – to feel that I’m special and/or the vessel of some special awareness or knowledge – is claim to be offended when I read term; well, that’s an easy choice to make. Of course, Choice #1 produced no tangible positive results by itself, but hey… like all mental masturbation, at least it felt good.

Regardless of how good delusional thinking might feel, the fact is that TS Separatists are no longer in possession of an unassailable reality that confers upon them a special status as both victim and freedom fighter. Now they’re just regular trans folk like the rest of us… not any better or more special and they are certainly no longer part of an elite battalion of a chosen few fueled by the fires of self-righteous hubris.

And, the Eulogy

Well, the time is at hand to admit that, by itself, the outcome of the hysterical rejection of “transgender” has only been drama, resentment and an elitist divisiveness. However, this is not to say that the past 5 years has been devoid of any positive growth. The assertions of fact made by TS Separatists have inspired – as a reaction to their hyperbole – a renascence of sorts within the trans community. The ad nauseum hyperbole spewed forth from  TS Separatists have…

  • Inspired folks like me to do some fact-checking which resulted in the discovery of a rich history heretofore unknown to our community.
  • Inspired people to reexamine ideas we took to for granted. Questions like, “Does organizing really work?” and “Is there really a community?” became topics of consideration.
  • Helped to uncover a well of self-directed transphobia (eg, the belief that “if I can just get the religious right to understand that I’m not like those disgusting crossdressers, they’ll then support me!”)

For the beneficial reactions within the trans community, I want to THANK the TS Separatists. Even though their mean spirited, obdurate and fanatical behavior visited untold suffering upon the lives of those they targeted and even though they worked around the clock to spread a fear-based ignorance far and wide, they were, nonetheless, the irritant which lead to the trans community rediscovering and reclaiming our rich trans history. If it hadn’t been for their misinformation campaign, there would have been no need to respond to it and therefore I wouldn’t have found myself fact-checking their truth claims and everyone would still believe that “transgender” came from the 1990s and had evolved from a term which meant crossdresser. Additionally, this past 5 years has proven the trans community to be just that: a community; because, any “community” that doesn’t have space for dissent and rational introspection isn’t a community at all.

PS: If, after reading this, you think I’m telling you that you must stop identifying as transsexual, please seek help. I didn’t say that and I’m not promoting that. What I am saying is that YOU AR NOT A VICTIM of a conspiracy. If you want to identify as a transsexual because it’s a more exact way of identifying your experience, that’s great! But STOP pretending that it’s offensive every time someone refers to transsexuals as transgender people. It’s not; the TS separatists movement lied to you… now get on with living your life.


1.) The earliest know use of “transgender” was in 1965 – years before Prince ever thought of using the word. In 1965, “transgender” referred to transsexuals who’ve had surgery. Keep in mind that in 1966, Harry Benjamin still used “transsexual” as an umbrella term inclusive of crossdressers. The idea that transsexuals have been “colonized” because the term transgender exists is a lie. The word “transgender” became used in the same way that “transsexual” was being used at the time: as an umbrella term. Transsexual only stopped being used as an umbrella term when HBIGDA/WPATH redefined the term in 1979 with in the publication of their Standards of Care I.

2.) Throughout the 1970s, transgender only ever meant transsexual or an umbrella term. No 1970s use of transgender has been found to only mean crossdresser. Transgender and transgenderist existed side-by-side, transgenderist meaning one thing while transgender another. The earliest known use of “transgenderist” is from 1975 – a decade after “transgender” was being used.

3.) As it turns out, NO evidence exists which support the idea that Prince’s 1 obscure (and immediate abandonment of) “transgenderal” (December, 1969) is where all trans terms come from. If 1 early, obscure and immediately abandoned usage of a term is the standard which should be used (without showing actual links between the terms), then we must now claim that all trans terms, including transsexual,transgenderal and transgender, somehow came from “trans-sexed” – a 1915 term which meant transgenderist… as standard which is absurd.

4.) Transgender predates Transgenderist. Transgenderist has been tracked to a magazine from 1975. Transgender is at least a decade older than transgenderist.

5.) Transgender originally meant post-op transsexual and transsexual was originally an umbrella term: transsexual, 1970 & transgender, 1970.

6.) It’s simple to track a robust, explicitly inclusive and unified community.

7.) From housing protections to Title VII protections, the proliferation of trans protections has exploded over the past 20 years.

8.) The arguments and bigotry that are used against trans folks today are the sames ones they were making against trans folks in the 1970s:

  • “There are numerous subjects who would want to change their sex identity in order to perpetrate crimes of homicide, tape, robbery, assault, etc.”- Columbus v. Zanders, 266 N.E.2d 602, 604–06 (Ohio Mun. Ct. 1970)
  • “Christine Jorgensen, 33-year-old ex-GI who underwent sex-switch operations, shows her diamond engagement ring as her fiance, Howard J. Knox, 38, holds her hand in New York marriage bureau. Christine was refused a license to wed because her birth certificate listed her as a male.” Start of the problems: 4/1959 and the problems continue: 7/1959.

9.) Not only was transsexual and umbrella term, inclusive terms have been a part of trans culture since the early 1900s:

  • Transgesticismus – This 1920 term was originally an Karl Ulrichs term (transgestismus), but was modified by Hirshfield to refer to people who behaved in a cross-sexed manner: “Seine Gesten sind oft so charakteristisch weiblich, daß man geradezu von einem Transgesticismus im Sinne einer Umkehrung der männlichen oder weiblichen Bewegungs modalität sprechen könnte. ” – M. Hirschfeld, Sexualpathologie III., Leipzig: A. Marcus & E. Webers, 1922, p. 11.
  • Hermaphroditismus (hermaphrodite) – Under  Hirshfield’s intersex types, all trans people were classified as being some type of intersex person: “I. Hermaphroditismus genitalis (Zwitter im engeren Sinne), Mischung männlicher und weiblicher Geschlechtsorgane. II. Hermaphroditismus somaticus (Androgynie), Mischung sonstiger körperlicher Geschlechtsunterschiede. III. Hermaphroditismus psychicus (Transvestitismus), Mischung seelischer Geschlechtsunterschiede. IV. Hermaphroditismus psychosexualis (Homosexualität, Metatropismus), männlicher Geschlechtstrieb beim Weibe, weiblicher beim Manne.” – M. Hirschfeld, Sexualpathologie II., Leipzig: A. Marcus & E. Webers, 1918, p. 89.This classification persisted well into the late 1950; on her 1958 LP, Jorgensen – while making it clear that she was not a true “hermaphrodite” – nevertheless discussed her experiences as an expression of sex that was caught between two bianary states of sex.
  • Zwischenstufen and Geschlechtsüebergäenge – According to the 1914 Lexicon of Sexology, these two terms were used to describe anyone who was not stereotypically male or female:In Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens by Dr. Ernst Burchard’ (Berlin, 1914), the book defines Geschlechtsuebergaenge in the following way (p 70): Geschlechtsüebergäenge, s. Zwischenstufen.It then defines Zwischenstufen in the following way (p 187):“Zwischenstufen, Unter sexuellen Z. verstehen wir alle geschlechtlichen Uebergangserscheinungen Körperlicher und seelischer Art: Die verschiedenen Formen von Androgynie (s. d.), Pseudohermaphroditismus (s. d.), und Hermaphroditismus (s. d.), auf dem Gebiete des körperlichen, Homosexualität (s. d.),und Transvestitismus (s. d.), auf dem des seelischen Zwittertums, Das letztere findet seine Erklärung in der Analogie mit den körperlichen Uebergangserscheinungen, welche auch nicht selten seine Begleiterscheinungen darstellen.
  • Transvestitismus (transvestite) – Originally coined in 1652, to reference crossdressing women, Hirshfield viewed this as a catch-all term for anyone with a “mixture of mental gender differences” (Mischung seelischer Geschlechtsunterschiede, 1918:89). In a 1931 report recounting the genital reconstruction surgeries by Berlin doctor Ludwig Levy-Lenz, the transsexuals in the report were referred to as transvestites. Transvestite was used as the umbrella term of its day and basically meant what transgender means today.
  • Transsexual – When Benjamin popularized this term, he meant it as a taxonomy for all part/full-time cross-sex living people whether or not they took hormones and/or undertook any surgical intervention.
  • Trans – By the 1970s, this term was used as an umbrella term to describe all crossdressers and/or transsexuals.“[By 1974] Some of the terminology used at the conference would take some twenty years to become widespread. As far as we are aware, the first use of the term trans.people (sic) was when Julia Tonner referred to “the two worlds of the trans.people” (ie transsexuals and transvestites). ” – (2007) Gendys Journal, D King & R Elkins
  • Transgender – First used as an umbrella term in print and during a trans conference in1974, a decade later the term was being commonly used as an umbrella term.

10.) The term existed decades before the 90s:

Transgender, 1965

“In fact, in at least one transgender center the history of a single episode of cross-dressing in association with sexual arousal is sufficient to exclude the diagnosis of transsexualism (Baker).” – (1974:487). Clinical sexuality: A Manual for the Physician and the Professions, J Oliven,  [Link]

“The transvestite rarely seeks transgender surgery, since the core of his perversion is an attempt to realize the fantasy of a phallic woman.”  – (1974: 176). A Practical Handbook of Psychiatry

“Some of the terminology used at the conference would take some twenty years to become widespread. As far as we are aware, the first use of the term trans.people (sic) was when Julia Tonner referred to “the two worlds of the trans.people” (ie transsexuals and transvestites). In addition, there was also talk of transsexuals seeking ‘gender alignment’ and of ‘trans-gender’ also used as an umbrella term.” – (2007) Gendys Journal, D King & R Elkins

“[R]aquel Welch (left), moviedom’s sex queen soon to be seen as the heroine/hero of Gore Vidal’s transgendered “Myra Breckinridge…” – (April 26, 1970). TV Guide, [Link]

11.) Look up Type 4 and Type 5 transsexual… those classifications have been widely known since 1966. Even a “True Transsexual” can be a non-op (Type 5 transsexual).

12.) Again, as it turns out NO evidence exists to support this assertion. The challenge was made to TS Separatists, RadFems (see below) and right wingers to produce jut 10 real-world examples where protections against discrimination based upon gender identity and expression allowed abusers to circumvent laws prohibiting rape, assault, stalking and/or public indecency/disturbance. None of them have been able to do so.


The only group to try to back up their hyperbole with something that appeared to be evidence was a right-wing anti-trans group:

“Since Montgomery County passed a similar bill, there have been 4 rapes by men, dressing as women lying in wait for their victims in ladies rooms.”

Really? Four rapes you say? Well, lets see what law enforcement has to say about that testable assertion of fact:

“Since this law has been in effect, we have had no reported rapes committed in restrooms by men dressed as women.”

Yup, they just lied. Again, there is NO evidence to support the bathroom meme they push.

Cross-posted from Ehipassiko

Editor’s Note:

Since the publication of this article, as predicted, the TS Separatist movement is largely over. Many of the main organizing sites have ceased publication and/or reversed the long-term positions they once held – again, all within the last year:

  • TS-Si – abandoned.
  • Dayna Taylor’s TS Separatist community site and wiki: gone.  (In fact, she now says she’s okay with “transgender”)
  • Suzane Cooke – publicly said that she’s not engaging in the “trans wars” anymore.
  • TGnonesense – closed shop and became private.
  • GenderReality – closed and deleted
  • TransFriedFluff – abandoned

And, as the article predicted, the only ones that seems to still assert the narratives debunked in this article are:

Just Jennifer:

Ashley Love:


Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams is a trans historian and pioneer in addressing the practical needs of the transgender community. She started the first trans homeless shelter in the South and co-founded the first federally funded trans-only homeless program, pioneered affordable healthcare for trans people in the Houston area, won the right for trans people to change their gender on Texas ID prior to surgery, started numerous trans social service programs and founded the Transgender Center as well as the Transgender Archives. Cristan is the editor at the social justice sites and, is a long-term member and previous chair of the City of Houston HIV Prevention Planning Group.
  • Jennifer

    Exceptionally well written. Bravo zulu Cristan (Navy speak for “good job”). I’ve never met a ‘separatist before; ‘only ever read some things… I guess they don’t get out much.

  • ZOMG I have seen pics of Thomas Jennifer Usher, and diaper afficionado Nicky. Dunno squat about any Ashley Love, but I assume she’s some sort of drag queen?

  • I’m sure not all lesbians are against transpersons. Just the run of the mill obese, Type II DM, old, less-than-photogenic, bitter ones sadly in need of a good deep dicking. Just as not all gay men are like Nelson Garcia, whispering seductions to young boys through his santorum-besmirched mustache. Of course, I guess even butt bandits and muff divers need SOMEONE to pick on, so they target trans. The eternal fires of hell will be ample reward. God bless.

  • Fionnuala

    Well, good. Cristan has declared the TS Separatist movement dead, and about a year ago, Mercedes Allen declared the TG Umbrella dead.

    Now hopefully everyone will just STFU, because that’s all these various blogs are, a bunch of blathering that has little impact on the day-to-day lives of many of the people involved in the pointless online debates.

  • Pingback: My Response to the Death of Trans Separatism | The Transadvocate()

  • Can someone point me to Cristan’s feminism site? Thanks.

    • I get it! “Cristan doesn’t have a feminism site; her argument is invalid!”

    • valeriekeefe

       I don’t think spreading cissexist misogyny to please the town bully is particularly feminist, but I have found that people’s interpretations are at extreme variance on this issue.

  • I think separatist politics often seem like an attempt by more privileged groups to distance themselves from less privileged groups within the trans community and other communities affected by the same prejudices and social structures. They seem like Gay Inc. selling out our issues to win their issues. I don’t like the separatist politics I’ve seen.

    But ‘transgender’ doesn’t describe my experience; ‘transsexual’ could. I know I’m a womon. I just don’t feel comfortable with either set of gender roles and I don’t relate to the emphasis on gender and celebration of gender in much of transgender politics.

    So… please don’t try to slip gender into my trans identity.

    • Q: For you, what is gender identity? Is it not your subjective experience of one’s sex?

      I know a number of self-identified “gender queer” folks who generally don’t refer to themselves as being transgender, but who, nonetheless, self-identify as being part of the trans community. I generally don’t refer to myself as being transgender; I tend to say transsexual. However, my history – my experience – certainly transcends social gender stereotypes; I therefore don’t mind being part of the transgender community. It describes my experience quite well in a very generic sort of way. Transsexual is more explicit and “trans” seems to be even more generic than transgender… which I kinda like.  

      • I don’t know. I usually speak of sex identity to better distinguish it from gender roles. I had a hard time understanding my felt need to transition, because I thought transgenderism and transsexualism were about gender roles, and I knew my feelings weren’t about gender roles. I imagine I’m not the only one who finds gender a stumbling-block.

      • Hrm… I think gender role and gender identity are 2 different things.  Have a look at this for context.

      •  Cristan,

        Thanks, but the images here only show up as small, unreadable thumbnails.

      • Hrm… did you try to click the image? When I click it, a DHTML box opens with the full-size image. : /

  • Felix Garnet-Simister

    I’m sure Marti won’t be offended when I point to the HBS/separatist clique as a hugely American, white, privileged former male movement.  These people give no respect to those before them who lived for decades as women with NO recourse to hormones, surgery or even a sympathetic ear.  The very women who kicked off at Stonewall and Compton’s Cafeteria in the ’60’s because they were sick of being abused and beaten and wanted others who came later to be safe.  The women who were Black and poor and who had male genitalia.  The women who would still fight for YOUR rights and the rights of ALL transsexual people today, if they were still alive.

    We don’t do this crap in England.  Well, a very few do – insisting they were “female at birth”-despite glaring evidence to the contrary and having lived as hetero, married men with kids and all the privileges that brings in a misogynistic, homophobic society. 
    Here, people of minority gendered experience work together as allies.  We don’t care if someone is a “post-op woman”  or a man who lives as female part of the time, or dresses as one to do sex work or a female who lives as a man.  Do you really think an attacker will care who or what you are if s/he perceives you as “different”?  they don’t.  I have been verbally abused for being a lesbian and assaulted for being a gay man and so has my partner.  We’re neither.  We just look like we MIGHT be.

    The UK trans community – and there has been a thriving one since the 1970’s – knows its history and its stuff.  When we drew up standards for our Gender Recognition Act we swore to leave no one behind.  That’s why 30 year old post-everything women don’t get MORE protection than 80 year olds who transitioned with no medical or surgical help.  The 80 year olds who fought in the last War so that we would not live under Nazism.  All get the SAME legal protection.  And the people who worked tirelessly to create these circumstances received Order of the British Empire medals from the Queen specifically for “services to transgender people”.

    Now, that’s what I call bringing about change.

    Let the separatists stay where they are – separate.  And if one of them has her history discovered and her life made a misery by hostile and violent neighbours please don’t offer her any support as a victim of transphobia.  She’s just a woman, after all and women have dealt with their own shit for centuries.  X

    • Don’t forget those pre/non-op trans women who fought at Dewey’s, Compton’s and or those who fought at the Cooper’s riot of 1958. 

      “I’m sure Marti won’t be offended when I point to the HBS/separatist clique as a hugely American, white, privileged former male movement. “Yup! You’re not the first to notice that. The thing is that they’re just ignorant of their own history and have built an entire world view upon that ignorance.Believe me, here in Houston it’s not like that either… which is, I suspect, why we tend to have nice things. 

  • Xiam

    As usual, another man with his important opinions as usual. You can surely see the misogynistic, glaring here. Also the illogic is so bad combined with false assumptions and misrepresentations

    As usual Cristan Williams is another whacked out mentally unstable transsexual with a complex narcissism to boot. It’s clear that people like Cristan are whacked out of their minds and unstable.

    • mzmartipants

       Normally I’d remove personal attacks, but I’m going to let them stand in this post. It just shows how right she is. The only thing you have left is personal attacks.  You’ll say it’s full of false assumptions and misrepresentations, but you refute/rebut nothing.

    • And that would put you into Category 1, Choice 1 proving that the movement – as it has existed over the past 5 years – is truly dead and that the corpse lays in the inept hands of fringe conspiracy theorists.

    • Christine Beatty

       Xiam, you only prove Cristan’s point.

  • Verity Cross

    So… a transsexual on HRT as well as socially transitioned and a transvestite who dresses up on Saturday night or in the evenings after work to go out of the front door are both transgender? Effectively the same thing? 

    I’m sorry but I don’t classify the transvestites I used to meet in clubs sometimes and the transsexuals I know personally today as being the same. 

    Transsexuals have a medical condition and need protections that need protections. 


    Alternatively, there are no more transvestites and no more transsexuals, there are just transgender people some on medication and having operations and others not and also not changing their passports and birth certificates and all of that. Not bothered about marriage equality or any other ugly stuff ‘cos hey (!) they just dress up when they feel like it.

    There are benefits to the Transgender umbrella term but there are also big differences between transsexuals and transvestites.

    • Verity Cross

      I should add I’m transsexual.
      Verity Cross

    • mzmartipants

       I don’t think anyone is saying that all trans people are alike. I most certainly wouldn’t say that. 

    • So… a transsexual on HRT as well as socially transitioned and a transvestite who dresses up on Saturday night or in the evenings after work to go out of the front door are both transgender…”

      Yup… have been since at least 1974. Or, if you look at the 1966 Type 4 Transsexual, then I guess we’ve been grouped together since 1966. Or, if you look at the 1923 definition, I guess you could say that it’s been that way since then. Or, if you look at the original 1910 definition of transvestisismus, then it’s been that way since 1910. 

      “… Effectively the same thing?”Wait… WHAT?!?! How the hell did you make that leap? If I call you a “person,” does that then mean that your identity is somehow taken from you? Your entire premise is fallacious and out of step with what is known about the English language. Any of the knots you choose to tie yourself into because you choose to cling to a logical fallacy are of your own making. 

    • s_zooey

      “Alternatively, there are no more transvestites and no more transsexuals, there are just transgender people some on medication and having operations and others not and also not changing their passports and birth certificates and all of that. ”

      This is like suggesting we do away with the term ‘North American’ because people from Whitehorse are too different from people from New Orleans…

      • Well, the premise is fallacious; they’re pretending that there’s no more TVs or TSs so that they have an argument. The foundation of their premise is fallacious. What – am I suddenly not a post-op TS? Of course I am. I’m also TG like I’m a Texan and an American. None of those realities somehow nullifies my being TS.

        They then state:

        There are benefits to the Transgender umbrella term but there are also big differences between transsexuals and transvestites. ”

        As if someone is trying to argue this point with them. It’s a strawman. Again, the narrative of the Separatist movement is dead.

  • This is almost impossible to parse, the illogic is that bad as well as the false assumption and mispresentation one after another simply too much to even unpack and address.

    I’m calling it:  Williams is brain dead.

    • As predicted:

      “The Separatists who are left seem to represent the JustJennifer/RadFem/Nick Chaleunphone/Ashley Love contingent.” 

    • mzmartipants

       I found it very readable and logical. You can’t even begin to unpack something laid out so plainly.  You can’t refute or rebut it, so the only thing you’re left with is ad hominems.