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February 6, 2008
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February 8, 2008

GLAAD:New York Post Headline Dehumanizes Transgender People

This is from the folks over at GLAAD:

February 7, 2008

Just one week after GLAAD issued an alert encouraging our community to respond to a sensational New York Post headline, the tabloid today ran yet another egregious headline, “Axis of She-Vil.” The article, about the Iranian government’s plans to subsidize sex reassignment surgeries, also included the defamatory sub-headline, “Death to Gays But Free Ops For Irani Trannies.”

Read article here.

“The Post’s latest dehumanizing headline is outrageous,” said Rashad Robinson, GLAAD’s Senior Director of Media Programs. “It reflects the tabloid’s ongoing disregard for journalistic standards and its blatant contempt for transgender people and the entire LGBT community.”

TAKE ACTION NOW!

GLAAD strongly urges you to contact the New York Post and demand that it stop sensationalizing the LGBT community.

CONTACT:
Mr. Jesse Angelo
Managing Editor
New York Post
Direct Phone : *212-930-8274
Outlet Phone : 212-930-8000
Email: letters@nypost.com

264 Comments

  1. Marti Abernathey says:

    Sorry, but this discussion is closed. If you two wish to discuss this, I’m sure you can swap email addresses. In the future, I’m going to monitor each post for these kinds of hijacks.

  2. Marti Abernathey says:

    Sorry, but this discussion is closed. If you two wish to discuss this, I’m sure you can swap email addresses. In the future, I’m going to monitor each post for these kinds of hijacks.

  3. Susan says:

    RE: Post #117 & #99

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    No, I’m not quite through yet, Monica. I have always been referring to what you posted in comment #99 and that is where YOU ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALES, not me. Why did YOU do that?

    Of course, YOU won’t answer that question. In typical Monica Helms fashion, YOU change the subject, and YOU dodge the issue. I was and am addressing YOUR post #99, where YOU ignore FtoM, not me…and where YOU are talking about orchiectomys, not me…and where YOU claim ALL of the states that will change a post op’s BC will do so if only an orchiectomy is performed, not me.

    So, to answer your question you ask in Post #99…yes, you are a liar. You simply throw out what you “think” as if it is fact, challenge everyone with it, all the while knowing what you said is not based on anything other than how you’d like things to be.

    And, of course, it is now YOU who resort to the obligatory shout down and name calling, while insulting me with your “Clint Eastwood” and “machismo references”…not me.

    Me? Pissed? Hardly. If you want to castrate yourself, claim that’s SRS, and call yourself a woman, have at it…it obviously works for you.

    By the way, I think it is pretty rotten of you to keep bringing up the FEMALES-TO-MALES and comparing their situation to those of a MtoF. I haven’t met but a couple of FtoM real time, and neither of them had bottom surgery due to the limited aethetic success/results. But both said they would in a heart beat if complete sex reassignment was as easy and inexpensive for them as it vaginaplasty/labiaplasty was for us MtoF.

    I wonder if those Females-to-Males in here would like to comment on that? If you are Female-to-Male, and in one, 3-4 hour surgery you could have a fully functioning penis (emphasis is FULLY FUNCTIONING penis, indistinguishable from that of any other natal male, would you opt for it?

  4. Susan says:

    RE: Post #117 & #99

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    No, I’m not quite through yet, Monica. I have always been referring to what you posted in comment #99 and that is where YOU ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALES, not me. Why did YOU do that?

    Of course, YOU won’t answer that question. In typical Monica Helms fashion, YOU change the subject, and YOU dodge the issue. I was and am addressing YOUR post #99, where YOU ignore FtoM, not me…and where YOU are talking about orchiectomys, not me…and where YOU claim ALL of the states that will change a post op’s BC will do so if only an orchiectomy is performed, not me.

    So, to answer your question you ask in Post #99…yes, you are a liar. You simply throw out what you “think” as if it is fact, challenge everyone with it, all the while knowing what you said is not based on anything other than how you’d like things to be.

    And, of course, it is now YOU who resort to the obligatory shout down and name calling, while insulting me with your “Clint Eastwood” and “machismo references”…not me.

    Me? Pissed? Hardly. If you want to castrate yourself, claim that’s SRS, and call yourself a woman, have at it…it obviously works for you.

    By the way, I think it is pretty rotten of you to keep bringing up the FEMALES-TO-MALES and comparing their situation to those of a MtoF. I haven’t met but a couple of FtoM real time, and neither of them had bottom surgery due to the limited aethetic success/results. But both said they would in a heart beat if complete sex reassignment was as easy and inexpensive for them as it vaginaplasty/labiaplasty was for us MtoF.

    I wonder if those Females-to-Males in here would like to comment on that? If you are Female-to-Male, and in one, 3-4 hour surgery you could have a fully functioning penis (emphasis is FULLY FUNCTIONING penis, indistinguishable from that of any other natal male, would you opt for it?

  5. Susan says:

    RE: Post #117 & #99

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    No, I’m not quite through yet, Monica. I have always been referring to what you posted in comment #99 and that is where YOU ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALES, not me. Why did YOU do that?

    Of course, YOU won’t answer that question. In typical Monica Helms fashion, YOU change the subject, and YOU dodge the issue. I was and am addressing YOUR post #99, where YOU ignore FtoM, not me…and where YOU are talking about orchiectomys, not me…and where YOU claim ALL of the states that will change a post op’s BC will do so if only an orchiectomy is performed, not me.

    So, to answer your question you ask in Post #99…yes, you are a liar. You simply throw out what you “think” as if it is fact, challenge everyone with it, all the while knowing what you said is not based on anything other than how you’d like things to be.

    And, of course, it is now YOU who resort to the obligatory shout down and name calling, while insulting me with your “Clint Eastwood” and “machismo references”…not me.

    Me? Pissed? Hardly. If you want to castrate yourself, claim that’s SRS, and call yourself a woman, have at it…it obviously works for you.

    By the way, I think it is pretty rotten of you to keep bringing up the FEMALES-TO-MALES and comparing their situation to those of a MtoF. I haven’t met but a couple of FtoM real time, and neither of them had bottom surgery due to the limited aethetic success/results. But both said they would in a heart beat if complete sex reassignment was as easy and inexpensive for them as it vaginaplasty/labiaplasty was for us MtoF.

    I wonder if those Females-to-Males in here would like to comment on that? If you are Female-to-Male, and in one, 3-4 hour surgery you could have a fully functioning penis (emphasis is FULLY FUNCTIONING penis, indistinguishable from that of any other natal male, would you opt for it?

  6. Felix says:

    Typo – “EHC” should read “ECHR” (European Court of Human Rights) in my last post.

  7. Felix says:

    Typo – “EHC” should read “ECHR” (European Court of Human Rights) in my last post.

  8. Felix says:

    Typo – “EHC” should read “ECHR” (European Court of Human Rights) in my last post.

  9. Felix says:

    Leigh, for your information, the EHC in 2002 assessed the cases of Rees v UK 1986 where a transman presented his case to be recognised as the gender he had lived in for decades and that of Christine Godwin, a transwoman in a similar situation. They ruled that the UK had breached Articles 8 and 12 of the European convention in both cases – the right to privacy and to marry and form a family. The Gender Recogniton Act may have evolved from this ruling but it is a UK Act of Parliament passed by an overwhelming majority in both Houses and signed by the Queen. Professor Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns, received the OBE (Order of the British Empire) medal from Her Majesty in recognition of their services to gender variant people; the only case in British history where known transpeople have been awarded this title.
    Incidentally, regarding your comments on “real English Anglo Saxons”, what makes you assume that I am not one of the people of Arab or Pakistani descent whom you seem so desperate to disparage? What a thoughtless and rude woman you are.

  10. Felix says:

    Leigh, for your information, the EHC in 2002 assessed the cases of Rees v UK 1986 where a transman presented his case to be recognised as the gender he had lived in for decades and that of Christine Godwin, a transwoman in a similar situation. They ruled that the UK had breached Articles 8 and 12 of the European convention in both cases – the right to privacy and to marry and form a family. The Gender Recogniton Act may have evolved from this ruling but it is a UK Act of Parliament passed by an overwhelming majority in both Houses and signed by the Queen. Professor Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns, received the OBE (Order of the British Empire) medal from Her Majesty in recognition of their services to gender variant people; the only case in British history where known transpeople have been awarded this title.
    Incidentally, regarding your comments on “real English Anglo Saxons”, what makes you assume that I am not one of the people of Arab or Pakistani descent whom you seem so desperate to disparage? What a thoughtless and rude woman you are.

  11. Monica Helms says:

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    When a natal women gets those same procedures done, they do not become men. So, why can trans men get their BC changed? Oh wait. You think it might be “THE LETTER?” The letter must work because trans men are getting their BC changed all the time, and most don’t get a penis added on.

    You can throw out all the regulations you want. It’s not going to change the fact that the letter used by trans men to get their BC changed is the same worded letter that trans women have used when they have an orkie. I don’t have to give you 47 names of trans women who have done it in those 47 states. But, I haven’t heard any stories of anyone who couldn’t as of yet. And, even if I had 47 names to give you, I sure wouldn’t post their names here just to placate your morbid curiosity.

    Could it be that you may be just a little pissed to know that some trans women have been able to get all of their documents changed by spending possible 1/20th the amount you did? Are you pissed that they are being treated the same as you in public? Are you just a little pissed that I or Marti are being treated the same in public as you? I have all of my documents changed, except for the BC. Does that piss you off, too? Please . . . come up with something better than this. I’m sensing a bit of machismo coming from your words.

    Oh, and regardless of whether the BC is “changed” or “amended,” the end result is that it can be used to change everything else, so why the insistence of semantics? In SC where I was born, they amend the BC by putting on the changes, but leave all the original stuff on there. I can still use that to get a passport with the “F” on it, if I ever wanted a passport.

    And, here on post #117, I’m still confident.

    The point seems to boil down to this: you cannot prove people have been turned away from getting their BC changed with a letter written by an orkie doctor in all of those 47 state any more than I can provide you with 47 names of people who have gotten it done. A Mexican standoff? You got the Clint Eastwood part down. But, I’m not ignoring what a lot of trans men have done with the same letter, and you have. For a “moron,” I seem to have a handle on more of the facts then you do.

    I can just feel you getting pissed again. You’ve been post-op for how long now? Interesting how machismo doesn’t leave when the penis is gone. Someone should do a study on that. Can we give them your name?

  12. Monica Helms says:

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    When a natal women gets those same procedures done, they do not become men. So, why can trans men get their BC changed? Oh wait. You think it might be “THE LETTER?” The letter must work because trans men are getting their BC changed all the time, and most don’t get a penis added on.

    You can throw out all the regulations you want. It’s not going to change the fact that the letter used by trans men to get their BC changed is the same worded letter that trans women have used when they have an orkie. I don’t have to give you 47 names of trans women who have done it in those 47 states. But, I haven’t heard any stories of anyone who couldn’t as of yet. And, even if I had 47 names to give you, I sure wouldn’t post their names here just to placate your morbid curiosity.

    Could it be that you may be just a little pissed to know that some trans women have been able to get all of their documents changed by spending possible 1/20th the amount you did? Are you pissed that they are being treated the same as you in public? Are you just a little pissed that I or Marti are being treated the same in public as you? I have all of my documents changed, except for the BC. Does that piss you off, too? Please . . . come up with something better than this. I’m sensing a bit of machismo coming from your words.

    Oh, and regardless of whether the BC is “changed” or “amended,” the end result is that it can be used to change everything else, so why the insistence of semantics? In SC where I was born, they amend the BC by putting on the changes, but leave all the original stuff on there. I can still use that to get a passport with the “F” on it, if I ever wanted a passport.

    And, here on post #117, I’m still confident.

    The point seems to boil down to this: you cannot prove people have been turned away from getting their BC changed with a letter written by an orkie doctor in all of those 47 state any more than I can provide you with 47 names of people who have gotten it done. A Mexican standoff? You got the Clint Eastwood part down. But, I’m not ignoring what a lot of trans men have done with the same letter, and you have. For a “moron,” I seem to have a handle on more of the facts then you do.

    I can just feel you getting pissed again. You’ve been post-op for how long now? Interesting how machismo doesn’t leave when the penis is gone. Someone should do a study on that. Can we give them your name?

  13. Monica Helms says:

    Are you through? In typical HBS fashion you ignored the FEMALE-TO-MALE transsexuals. How can they can get their BC changed with a common procedure as a hysterectomy, and in some cases, just top surgery, when you seem to think that it has to be the complete inversion of the penis for it to work for us?

    When a natal women gets those same procedures done, they do not become men. So, why can trans men get their BC changed? Oh wait. You think it might be “THE LETTER?” The letter must work because trans men are getting their BC changed all the time, and most don’t get a penis added on.

    You can throw out all the regulations you want. It’s not going to change the fact that the letter used by trans men to get their BC changed is the same worded letter that trans women have used when they have an orkie. I don’t have to give you 47 names of trans women who have done it in those 47 states. But, I haven’t heard any stories of anyone who couldn’t as of yet. And, even if I had 47 names to give you, I sure wouldn’t post their names here just to placate your morbid curiosity.

    Could it be that you may be just a little pissed to know that some trans women have been able to get all of their documents changed by spending possible 1/20th the amount you did? Are you pissed that they are being treated the same as you in public? Are you just a little pissed that I or Marti are being treated the same in public as you? I have all of my documents changed, except for the BC. Does that piss you off, too? Please . . . come up with something better than this. I’m sensing a bit of machismo coming from your words.

    Oh, and regardless of whether the BC is “changed” or “amended,” the end result is that it can be used to change everything else, so why the insistence of semantics? In SC where I was born, they amend the BC by putting on the changes, but leave all the original stuff on there. I can still use that to get a passport with the “F” on it, if I ever wanted a passport.

    And, here on post #117, I’m still confident.

    The point seems to boil down to this: you cannot prove people have been turned away from getting their BC changed with a letter written by an orkie doctor in all of those 47 state any more than I can provide you with 47 names of people who have gotten it done. A Mexican standoff? You got the Clint Eastwood part down. But, I’m not ignoring what a lot of trans men have done with the same letter, and you have. For a “moron,” I seem to have a handle on more of the facts then you do.

    I can just feel you getting pissed again. You’ve been post-op for how long now? Interesting how machismo doesn’t leave when the penis is gone. Someone should do a study on that. Can we give them your name?

  14. Susan says:

    Monica, up there on Comment #99 you were obviously very confident, and I am sure you were not so ignorant to make the comments you did, i.e., ALL 47 states consider an orchiectomy a sex change without having read that somewhere…so post the link to where you read that so that someone can correct your source.

    Of course, if you just made it up…then “You better do your research before you type that next word, or Mark Twain’s saying will fit you rather nicely.”

    BTW…I don’t cage wrestle…I transitioned to be as female as I can be…including behave, talk, walk, GRS, etc. No need to transition to female, you know, if afterwards one is still going to behave as a guy. *S*

  15. Susan says:

    Monica, up there on Comment #99 you were obviously very confident, and I am sure you were not so ignorant to make the comments you did, i.e., ALL 47 states consider an orchiectomy a sex change without having read that somewhere…so post the link to where you read that so that someone can correct your source.

    Of course, if you just made it up…then “You better do your research before you type that next word, or Mark Twain’s saying will fit you rather nicely.”

    BTW…I don’t cage wrestle…I transitioned to be as female as I can be…including behave, talk, walk, GRS, etc. No need to transition to female, you know, if afterwards one is still going to behave as a guy. *S*

  16. Monica Helms says:

    I’ll soon find out how South Carolina will handle this.

  17. Monica Helms says:

    I’ll soon find out how South Carolina will handle this.

  18. Susan says:

    Here’s a few more…

    New York City

    Court Order granting name change (Original or certified copy)
    b) Detailed Surgical Operative Letter from SRS surgeon
    c) Post Operative Examination signed by a physician other than SRS surgeon

    d) Post Operative Psychiatric Evaluation (??)
    e) $15
    f) Copy of valid photo ID

    New York State

    – the letter from your SRS surgeon, specifying date, place, and type of procedure
    – the actual OPERATIVE REPORT from your SRS
    Once these documents are received, a “medical review” will be performed, and your new certificate issued.

    Virginia

    12 VAC. 5-550-320. Change of Sex.

    Except as provided in 12VAC 5-550-450-C upon presentation of acceptable
    evidence (preoperative diagnosis, postoperative diagnosis and description of
    procedure)
    , and a notarized affidavit from the physician performing the surgery,

    Taxi for Juan Kerr…

  19. Susan says:

    Here’s a few more…

    New York City

    Court Order granting name change (Original or certified copy)
    b) Detailed Surgical Operative Letter from SRS surgeon
    c) Post Operative Examination signed by a physician other than SRS surgeon

    d) Post Operative Psychiatric Evaluation (??)
    e) $15
    f) Copy of valid photo ID

    New York State

    – the letter from your SRS surgeon, specifying date, place, and type of procedure
    – the actual OPERATIVE REPORT from your SRS
    Once these documents are received, a “medical review” will be performed, and your new certificate issued.

    Virginia

    12 VAC. 5-550-320. Change of Sex.

    Except as provided in 12VAC 5-550-450-C upon presentation of acceptable
    evidence (preoperative diagnosis, postoperative diagnosis and description of
    procedure)
    , and a notarized affidavit from the physician performing the surgery,

    Taxi for Juan Kerr…

  20. Susan says:

    RS 40:62

    PART II. BIRTH RECORD AFTER CHANGE IN SEX DESIGNATION

    §62. Issuance of new birth certificate after anatomical change of sex by surgery

    A. Any person born in Louisiana who has sustained sex reassignment or corrective surgery which has changed the anatomical structure of the sex of the individual to that of a sex other than that which appears on the original birth certificate of the individual, may petition a court of competent jurisdiction as provided in this Section to obtain a new certificate of birth.

    B. Suits authorized by this Section shall be filed contradictorily against the state registrar in the judicial district court having jurisdiction over the parish in which the petitioner resides or over the parish in which the petitioner was born. A nonresident born in Louisiana shall file the petition in the parish of birth. The suit of any petitioner born in Louisiana shall be filed contradictorily against the state registrar. In the event the petitioner is married, the spouse shall also be a necessary party to the suit. To the extent that the petitioner’s name is to be changed, the district attorney shall also be a necessary party. In all cases the petition shall be accompanied by a certified copy of the petitioner’s original birth record, in which case the short-form birth certificate card shall not be sufficient.

    C. The court shall require such proof as it deems necessary to be convinced that the petitioner was properly diagnosed as a transsexual or pseudo-hermaphrodite, that sex reassignment or corrective surgery has been properly performed upon the petitioner, and that as a result of such surgery and subsequent medical treatment the anatomical structure of the sex of the petitioner has been changed to a sex other than that which is stated on the original birth certificate of the petitioner.

    If the court shall find that the evidence sustains the required proof, the court shall render a judgment ordering the issuance of a new birth certificate changing the sex designated thereon from that shown upon the petitioner’s original certificate of birth. The petitioner may in the same suit seek to have the name of the petitioner changed, and the court may render judgment in accordance with law upon this additional petition at the same time.

    D.(1) A certified copy of the petition and judgment for a new certificate pursuant to this Section shall be furnished to the state registrar of vital records at New Orleans within ten days after the judgment is rendered. The registrar shall issue to the petitioner a new certificate or certified copy thereof; whereupon the original birth certificate and the copy of the petition and judgment received by the registrar shall be sealed in a package and filed in the archives of the vital records registry.

    (2) This sealed package shall be opened only upon demand of the individual to whom the new certificate was issued, and then only by order of the court which rendered the judgment ordering the issuance of the new certificate.

    BTW…Susan is my real name…I have tons of friends…make a bit less than $200K…no “sirs”…great medical and dental…have a boyfriend…car is four years old, but was a brand new Mustang when I bought it…two brothers won’t talk to me, parents are deceased

    I’m not saying you are a liar, simply that you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. I won’t argue the 47 states will change the BC, though a large portion of them only ammend it, rather than issue a new one; I would argue ALL 47 or even most of them would consider an orchiectomy is GRS though. The above is Louisiana’s law…where I was born.

    BUT…I like to see YOUR substantiation for making the statement you did.

  21. Susan says:

    RS 40:62

    PART II. BIRTH RECORD AFTER CHANGE IN SEX DESIGNATION

    §62. Issuance of new birth certificate after anatomical change of sex by surgery

    A. Any person born in Louisiana who has sustained sex reassignment or corrective surgery which has changed the anatomical structure of the sex of the individual to that of a sex other than that which appears on the original birth certificate of the individual, may petition a court of competent jurisdiction as provided in this Section to obtain a new certificate of birth.

    B. Suits authorized by this Section shall be filed contradictorily against the state registrar in the judicial district court having jurisdiction over the parish in which the petitioner resides or over the parish in which the petitioner was born. A nonresident born in Louisiana shall file the petition in the parish of birth. The suit of any petitioner born in Louisiana shall be filed contradictorily against the state registrar. In the event the petitioner is married, the spouse shall also be a necessary party to the suit. To the extent that the petitioner’s name is to be changed, the district attorney shall also be a necessary party. In all cases the petition shall be accompanied by a certified copy of the petitioner’s original birth record, in which case the short-form birth certificate card shall not be sufficient.

    C. The court shall require such proof as it deems necessary to be convinced that the petitioner was properly diagnosed as a transsexual or pseudo-hermaphrodite, that sex reassignment or corrective surgery has been properly performed upon the petitioner, and that as a result of such surgery and subsequent medical treatment the anatomical structure of the sex of the petitioner has been changed to a sex other than that which is stated on the original birth certificate of the petitioner.

    If the court shall find that the evidence sustains the required proof, the court shall render a judgment ordering the issuance of a new birth certificate changing the sex designated thereon from that shown upon the petitioner’s original certificate of birth. The petitioner may in the same suit seek to have the name of the petitioner changed, and the court may render judgment in accordance with law upon this additional petition at the same time.

    D.(1) A certified copy of the petition and judgment for a new certificate pursuant to this Section shall be furnished to the state registrar of vital records at New Orleans within ten days after the judgment is rendered. The registrar shall issue to the petitioner a new certificate or certified copy thereof; whereupon the original birth certificate and the copy of the petition and judgment received by the registrar shall be sealed in a package and filed in the archives of the vital records registry.

    (2) This sealed package shall be opened only upon demand of the individual to whom the new certificate was issued, and then only by order of the court which rendered the judgment ordering the issuance of the new certificate.

    BTW…Susan is my real name…I have tons of friends…make a bit less than $200K…no “sirs”…great medical and dental…have a boyfriend…car is four years old, but was a brand new Mustang when I bought it…two brothers won’t talk to me, parents are deceased

    I’m not saying you are a liar, simply that you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. I won’t argue the 47 states will change the BC, though a large portion of them only ammend it, rather than issue a new one; I would argue ALL 47 or even most of them would consider an orchiectomy is GRS though. The above is Louisiana’s law…where I was born.

    BUT…I like to see YOUR substantiation for making the statement you did.

  22. Val says:

    > The doctor has to write a letter, as do the SRS doctors. The letter states that “My patient, _________, has undergone gender/sex altering surgery that is irreverable.” The states see this as what it really is.

    That sounds like a semantic finagle to me, and I’m not at all convinced that the states “see what it really is,” but in fact make the good faith assumption that what is meant is SRS. In fact, I’m pretty sure that some states explicitly require specification of the surgery, and do not permit ambiguous language.

    I wonder if anyone has done a survey of this kind of thing?

  23. Val says:

    > The doctor has to write a letter, as do the SRS doctors. The letter states that “My patient, _________, has undergone gender/sex altering surgery that is irreverable.” The states see this as what it really is.

    That sounds like a semantic finagle to me, and I’m not at all convinced that the states “see what it really is,” but in fact make the good faith assumption that what is meant is SRS. In fact, I’m pretty sure that some states explicitly require specification of the surgery, and do not permit ambiguous language.

    I wonder if anyone has done a survey of this kind of thing?

  24. Monica Helms says:

    ” . . . speaking of which, are there any real english anglo saxons’s still there ? Last time I was over the whole place seemed to be ran by the Arabs and Pakistani’s. Little wonder the gov’t could care less what happens on old blighty any more .. went to the dogs it did.”

    I see that your bigotry is not confined to your hatred toward transgender people. It seems you’re a racist, too. Go figure.

  25. Monica Helms says:

    ” . . . speaking of which, are there any real english anglo saxons’s still there ? Last time I was over the whole place seemed to be ran by the Arabs and Pakistani’s. Little wonder the gov’t could care less what happens on old blighty any more .. went to the dogs it did.”

    I see that your bigotry is not confined to your hatred toward transgender people. It seems you’re a racist, too. Go figure.

  26. leigh says:

    The UK was FORCED to recognise gender variants by the EEC Human Rights Courts, otherwise the UK would also still be in the dark ages … speaking of which, are there any real english anglo saxons’s still there ? Last time I was over the whole place seemed to be ran by the Arabs and Pakistani’s. Little wonder the gov’t could care less what happens on old blighty any more .. went to the dogs it did .. I mean there was a recent poll over there in which 47% thought Richard the Lionheart was fictional, 27% thought Florence Nightingale was mythical, 65% believed King Arthur and Camelot was real, 58% believed Sherlock Holmes really lived at 221B Baker Street, 47% believed Eleanor Rigby was a real person, 1/5 of teenagers believed Winston Churchill was a fictional character and 51% believed that Robin Hood lived in Sherwood Forest.

    … when the last Brit leave’s, please open the sea cocks…

  27. leigh says:

    The UK was FORCED to recognise gender variants by the EEC Human Rights Courts, otherwise the UK would also still be in the dark ages … speaking of which, are there any real english anglo saxons’s still there ? Last time I was over the whole place seemed to be ran by the Arabs and Pakistani’s. Little wonder the gov’t could care less what happens on old blighty any more .. went to the dogs it did .. I mean there was a recent poll over there in which 47% thought Richard the Lionheart was fictional, 27% thought Florence Nightingale was mythical, 65% believed King Arthur and Camelot was real, 58% believed Sherlock Holmes really lived at 221B Baker Street, 47% believed Eleanor Rigby was a real person, 1/5 of teenagers believed Winston Churchill was a fictional character and 51% believed that Robin Hood lived in Sherwood Forest.

    … when the last Brit leave’s, please open the sea cocks…

  28. Monica Helms says:

    Felix,
    This country is still in the stone ages when it comes to recognizing that all of its citizens need to be treated equally and fairly. Even the Veterans Admin discriminates agains trans veterans just because they are trans. Yet, we put our lives on the line like all the other veterans.

    The UK has always been one of the more civilized English-speaking countries in the world. When they came around to recognize trans rights, they went all the way. They even let their transgender military people stay in the military and “transition on the job.” For the most part, the majority of our citizens are proud of their ignorance and hatred. See how Jennifer, Leigh and Susan have been acting. Project that out to the non-trans people in this country and you can get a rather grim picture of what we go through here.

  29. Monica Helms says:

    Felix,
    This country is still in the stone ages when it comes to recognizing that all of its citizens need to be treated equally and fairly. Even the Veterans Admin discriminates agains trans veterans just because they are trans. Yet, we put our lives on the line like all the other veterans.

    The UK has always been one of the more civilized English-speaking countries in the world. When they came around to recognize trans rights, they went all the way. They even let their transgender military people stay in the military and “transition on the job.” For the most part, the majority of our citizens are proud of their ignorance and hatred. See how Jennifer, Leigh and Susan have been acting. Project that out to the non-trans people in this country and you can get a rather grim picture of what we go through here.

  30. Felix says:

    It’s amazing how the requirements for legal recognition of gender vary across the world. Here in the UK we persisted in our demand that ANY kind of hormonal or surgical intervention NOT be a prerequisite – and we won! We were determined not to leave behind anyone who had lived for decades without medical assistance in their true identity and those for whom such treatment was not an option for any reason. Of course, the US is much bigger than the UK and there are the complications of each state having laws unto itself but I think it is important that our Gender Recognition Act be heard about. The demands of FTMs in many countries are nothing short of ludicrous. In Australia, for example, you have to have a hysterectomy. Why? How on earth does anyone know whether or not you have had a hysterectomy? And what difference is it supposed to make to your quality of life? What if you decide later to have children? I have no intention of having totally unnecessary and uncomfortable surgery when I am already in ill health and menopausal. The issue about chest surgery is also silly. Many transmen bind their breasts – so what? Biomen may have “man-boobs” for reasons of genetics or weight and they can get cancer in that area just like women. The UK gender activists unpicked all this stuff with a fine tooth comb over a period of many years until we were satisfied with what Parliament had to offer us. I take pride in this and despair of the focus on physicality which misinforms so many legal debates about the status of transpersons in various situations.

  31. Felix says:

    It’s amazing how the requirements for legal recognition of gender vary across the world. Here in the UK we persisted in our demand that ANY kind of hormonal or surgical intervention NOT be a prerequisite – and we won! We were determined not to leave behind anyone who had lived for decades without medical assistance in their true identity and those for whom such treatment was not an option for any reason. Of course, the US is much bigger than the UK and there are the complications of each state having laws unto itself but I think it is important that our Gender Recognition Act be heard about. The demands of FTMs in many countries are nothing short of ludicrous. In Australia, for example, you have to have a hysterectomy. Why? How on earth does anyone know whether or not you have had a hysterectomy? And what difference is it supposed to make to your quality of life? What if you decide later to have children? I have no intention of having totally unnecessary and uncomfortable surgery when I am already in ill health and menopausal. The issue about chest surgery is also silly. Many transmen bind their breasts – so what? Biomen may have “man-boobs” for reasons of genetics or weight and they can get cancer in that area just like women. The UK gender activists unpicked all this stuff with a fine tooth comb over a period of many years until we were satisfied with what Parliament had to offer us. I take pride in this and despair of the focus on physicality which misinforms so many legal debates about the status of transpersons in various situations.

  32. Felix says:

    It’s amazing how the requirements for legal recognition of gender vary across the world. Here in the UK we persisted in our demand that ANY kind of hormonal or surgical intervention NOT be a prerequisite – and we won! We were determined not to leave behind anyone who had lived for decades without medical assistance in their true identity and those for whom such treatment was not an option for any reason. Of course, the US is much bigger than the UK and there are the complications of each state having laws unto itself but I think it is important that our Gender Recognition Act be heard about. The demands of FTMs in many countries are nothing short of ludicrous. In Australia, for example, you have to have a hysterectomy. Why? How on earth does anyone know whether or not you have had a hysterectomy? And what difference is it supposed to make to your quality of life? What if you decide later to have children? I have no intention of having totally unnecessary and uncomfortable surgery when I am already in ill health and menopausal. The issue about chest surgery is also silly. Many transmen bind their breasts – so what? Biomen may have “man-boobs” for reasons of genetics or weight and they can get cancer in that area just like women. The UK gender activists unpicked all this stuff with a fine tooth comb over a period of many years until we were satisfied with what Parliament had to offer us. I take pride in this and despair of the focus on physicality which misinforms so many legal decisions about the status of transpersons in various situations.

  33. Felix says:

    It’s amazing how the requirements for legal recognition of gender vary across the world. Here in the UK we persisted in our demand that ANY kind of hormonal or surgical intervention NOT be a prerequisite – and we won! We were determined not to leave behind anyone who had lived for decades without medical assistance in their true identity and those for whom such treatment was not an option for any reason. Of course, the US is much bigger than the UK and there are the complications of each state having laws unto itself but I think it is important that our Gender Recognition Act be heard about. The demands of FTMs in many countries are nothing short of ludicrous. In Australia, for example, you have to have a hysterectomy. Why? How on earth does anyone know whether or not you have had a hysterectomy? And what difference is it supposed to make to your quality of life? What if you decide later to have children? I have no intention of having totally unnecessary and uncomfortable surgery when I am already in ill health and menopausal. The issue about chest surgery is also silly. Many transmen bind their breasts – so what? Biomen may have “man-boobs” for reasons of genetics or weight and they can get cancer in that area just like women. The UK gender activists unpicked all this stuff with a fine tooth comb over a period of many years until we were satisfied with what Parliament had to offer us. I take pride in this and despair of the focus on physicality which misinforms so many legal decisions about the status of transpersons in various situations.

  34. Monica Helms says:

    It’s very simple. The doctor has to write a letter, as do the SRS doctors. The letter states that “My patient, _________, has undergone gender/sex altering surgery that is irreverable.” The states see this as what it really is. There is no deception and the states do not ask for details because they would be violating the law asking for private medical information.

    FtMs go through the same thing when they get a hysterectomy. (sp?) Women get them all the time, but only FtMs need a letter. They are not being any more deceptive than MtFs who get an orkie. The letter states the medical truth.

  35. Monica Helms says:

    It’s very simple. The doctor has to write a letter, as do the SRS doctors. The letter states that “My patient, _________, has undergone gender/sex altering surgery that is irreverable.” The states see this as what it really is. There is no deception and the states do not ask for details because they would be violating the law asking for private medical information.

    FtMs go through the same thing when they get a hysterectomy. (sp?) Women get them all the time, but only FtMs need a letter. They are not being any more deceptive than MtFs who get an orkie. The letter states the medical truth.

  36. Val says:

    Sorry, didn’t meant to presume. Let me put it this way: if there were an authoritative and concise means to confirm that all (or even most) of the states that allow BC change also permit it on the basis of orchiectomy, it would be interesting and helpful.

  37. Val says:

    Sorry, didn’t meant to presume. Let me put it this way: if there were an authoritative and concise means to confirm that all (or even most) of the states that allow BC change also permit it on the basis of orchiectomy, it would be interesting and helpful.

  38. Monica Helms says:

    Stelle says that all I listed were “things.” Out of the 11 items I listed, only 4 would fall into the catagory of “things.” Spirituality, love of friend and family and overall happiness don’t qualify as “things.” But, they do show an overall quanitative measurement of the quality of your life.

    Val, I’m not sure what it is I’m suppose to come up with. Could you clarify this a bit for me. I would be glad to help where I can.

  39. Monica Helms says:

    Stelle says that all I listed were “things.” Out of the 11 items I listed, only 4 would fall into the catagory of “things.” Spirituality, love of friend and family and overall happiness don’t qualify as “things.” But, they do show an overall quanitative measurement of the quality of your life.

    Val, I’m not sure what it is I’m suppose to come up with. Could you clarify this a bit for me. I would be glad to help where I can.

  40. Stellewriter says:

    I am so terribly sorry if my humor, or attempts at same have offended. Yet, I do not find the banter and attacks of others of much value either. Too bad we could not elevate the conversation.

    Regarding Monica’s measure of success, happiness, or what ever the purpose it does indicate some of what I have been trying to share here. That each of us has our own losses, dreams, and needs. Only we, individually, can set a value upon them, not what someone else may insist. Myself, well transition has cost me in excess of a million dollars, and losses that I cannot freely express. Yet, the price I would pay ten times over, just to be a free and happy as I am now; to be normal, at least in my mind. Never the less, to say that material, social status, or any other thing is a measure of our individual worth is in fact the problem we are most challenged by. Our worth is solely based upon the fact that we are, we exist, and we have individuality. The quality of our lives is a matter of our own evaluation and satisfaction. No one can place upon another their set of values and suppose them to be the measure all should follow. Yes, we have from above reckoning that each must abide, but not from those who are less.

    As for the list of questions, they are “things”, and do not express anything about me. They do however frame the inquisitor, and like the elitist HRC and their ilk, can be used isolate others. That brings to point all that I have tried to share here on Transadvocate. We either lift each other out of the muck and help each other, or we continue to act out exactly as the militant gay thugs so gleefully expect the Transgender to continue doing. It is sad, very sad…… and again my apologies if I have appeared to have personally berated any particular individual. Also, the value of this site is, like so many others, steeped in anger and hate, not showing much value in support. Therefore, while I do not see much support, I also see that my input is of little value as well.

    Never mind responding to this post as I am moving on and will not be visiting this site any longer.

    Good bye – Stellewriter

  41. Stellewriter says:

    I am so terribly sorry if my humor, or attempts at same have offended. Yet, I do not find the banter and attacks of others of much value either. Too bad we could not elevate the conversation.

    Regarding Monica’s measure of success, happiness, or what ever the purpose it does indicate some of what I have been trying to share here. That each of us has our own losses, dreams, and needs. Only we, individually, can set a value upon them, not what someone else may insist. Myself, well transition has cost me in excess of a million dollars, and losses that I cannot freely express. Yet, the price I would pay ten times over, just to be a free and happy as I am now; to be normal, at least in my mind. Never the less, to say that material, social status, or any other thing is a measure of our individual worth is in fact the problem we are most challenged by. Our worth is solely based upon the fact that we are, we exist, and we have individuality. The quality of our lives is a matter of our own evaluation and satisfaction. No one can place upon another their set of values and suppose them to be the measure all should follow. Yes, we have from above reckoning that each must abide, but not from those who are less.

    As for the list of questions, they are “things”, and do not express anything about me. They do however frame the inquisitor, and like the elitist HRC and their ilk, can be used isolate others. That brings to point all that I have tried to share here on Transadvocate. We either lift each other out of the muck and help each other, or we continue to act out exactly as the militant gay thugs so gleefully expect the Transgender to continue doing. It is sad, very sad…… and again my apologies if I have appeared to have personally berated any particular individual. Also, the value of this site is, like so many others, steeped in anger and hate, not showing much value in support. Therefore, while I do not see much support, I also see that my input is of little value as well.

    Never mind responding to this post as I am moving on and will not be visiting this site any longer.

    Good bye – Stellewriter

  42. Val says:

    Considering that Harry Benjamin identified the testes as the primary sex organ, that the Standards of Care do not specify vaginoplasty as the sole criterion for transition, and that castration was, until comparatively recently, the only available “sex change” surgery available to MTF transsexuals, it’s not wholly unreasonable to believe that states that recognize legal sex change at all might set a lower threshold than full vaginoplasty. I’ll be interested to see what Monica comes up with here, and I think we ought to send up a flare in Katrina Rose’s direction.

  43. Val says:

    Considering that Harry Benjamin identified the testes as the primary sex organ, that the Standards of Care do not specify vaginoplasty as the sole criterion for transition, and that castration was, until comparatively recently, the only available “sex change” surgery available to MTF transsexuals, it’s not wholly unreasonable to believe that states that recognize legal sex change at all might set a lower threshold than full vaginoplasty. I’ll be interested to see what Monica comes up with here, and I think we ought to send up a flare in Katrina Rose’s direction.

  44. Monica Helms says:

    I have a few questions for the readers on this blog. How many of you have the guts to answer them truthfully without dodging them, or laughing them off, or call me names instead? Let’s see.

    1.) Do you have a good job that allows you to live comfortably?
    2.) Do you own your house or pay mortgage on it?
    3.) Does everyone in your family accept you and love you?
    4.) Do you have a partner, spouse or lover in your life?
    5.) Do you own a car that was built in this century?
    6.) Do you have a lot of friends you can count on at a moment’s notice?
    7.) Have you gotten “sir’ed” (MtF) or “ma’am’ed” (FtM) in the last week?
    8.) Month? (On the telephone don’t count.)
    9.) Do you have good health insurance?
    10.) Are you overall happy with your life?
    11.) Is your spiritual life in order?

    A perfect score would be to answer “Yes” to 1-6, 9-11, “No” to 7 & 8. If you find that there are too many “Nos or Yeses” in the wrong place, then maybe it’s time to reevaluate your life.

    Regardless of whether you have a vagina or not, or whether you hate my guts or not, at the end of the day, it is just you and no one else. Success in life has nothing to do with what’s between your legs and everything to do with what’s between your ears.

    Screaming at other people and putting them down for not having a vagina is more a sign of other problems that loom over you. Coming here and calling people “Mr.” and other nasty names is similar to taking alcohol and drugs. It makes you feel good for a short moment, but your real problems still exist.

    If you don’t like everything about what you see in the mirror, then seek help. And, I’m not talking about physical appearance. In reality, the fortitude is not answering the questions here. You show fortitude by answering the questions truthfully to yourself. If you can’t, then that might be another reason to seek help. And, screaming at me isn’t going to change those answers.

    By the way, my answers to 7 & 8 were “No,” and on the others, I answered “No” to #4.

  45. Monica Helms says:

    I have a few questions for the readers on this blog. How many of you have the guts to answer them truthfully without dodging them, or laughing them off, or call me names instead? Let’s see.

    1.) Do you have a good job that allows you to live comfortably?
    2.) Do you own your house or pay mortgage on it?
    3.) Does everyone in your family accept you and love you?
    4.) Do you have a partner, spouse or lover in your life?
    5.) Do you own a car that was built in this century?
    6.) Do you have a lot of friends you can count on at a moment’s notice?
    7.) Have you gotten “sir’ed” (MtF) or “ma’am’ed” (FtM) in the last week?
    8.) Month? (On the telephone don’t count.)
    9.) Do you have good health insurance?
    10.) Are you overall happy with your life?
    11.) Is your spiritual life in order?

    A perfect score would be to answer “Yes” to 1-6, 9-11, “No” to 7 & 8. If you find that there are too many “Nos or Yeses” in the wrong place, then maybe it’s time to reevaluate your life.

    Regardless of whether you have a vagina or not, or whether you hate my guts or not, at the end of the day, it is just you and no one else. Success in life has nothing to do with what’s between your legs and everything to do with what’s between your ears.

    Screaming at other people and putting them down for not having a vagina is more a sign of other problems that loom over you. Coming here and calling people “Mr.” and other nasty names is similar to taking alcohol and drugs. It makes you feel good for a short moment, but your real problems still exist.

    If you don’t like everything about what you see in the mirror, then seek help. And, I’m not talking about physical appearance. In reality, the fortitude is not answering the questions here. You show fortitude by answering the questions truthfully to yourself. If you can’t, then that might be another reason to seek help. And, screaming at me isn’t going to change those answers.

    By the way, my answers to 7 & 8 were “No,” and on the others, I answered “No” to #4.

  46. leigh says:

    gee…! such a hubub! and all cause I said…. “Chicks with Dicks” .. think I musta hit a nerve there .. no pun intended.

    See marti .. I do more for your blog than google does … lol

    As for you guys wanting to play with me in your bedrooms .. um… only if I get to be the girl ok. Sorry but I just cant do the lesbian thing any more.. been there done that. By the way, can you still get it up ? All them mones probably shrunk it down huh ? Oh but then I forget …thats your clitoris .. silly me.

    well .. I have more attack dogging to do so ya’ll play nice now ya hear! 😉

    Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof

  47. leigh says:

    gee…! such a hubub! and all cause I said…. “Chicks with Dicks” .. think I musta hit a nerve there .. no pun intended.

    See marti .. I do more for your blog than google does … lol

    As for you guys wanting to play with me in your bedrooms .. um… only if I get to be the girl ok. Sorry but I just cant do the lesbian thing any more.. been there done that. By the way, can you still get it up ? All them mones probably shrunk it down huh ? Oh but then I forget …thats your clitoris .. silly me.

    well .. I have more attack dogging to do so ya’ll play nice now ya hear! 😉

    Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof–Woof

  48. Monica Helms says:

    So, Susan (if that’s your real name,) are you saying I’m a liar about 47 states allowing to change BC and 3 won’t? Are you saying I’m a liar about those same states allowing the birth certificates change with only and orkie? You better do your research before you type that next word, or Mark Twain’s saying will fit you rather nicely.

    And Stelle, I won’t be at SCC this year. My son gets married in California that weekend and he’s more important than any other person, except his brother, my grandson and my mother. So, if you’re hoping to do a cage match, do it with Jennifer or Susan. I don’t give a flying fuck.

  49. Monica Helms says:

    So, Susan (if that’s your real name,) are you saying I’m a liar about 47 states allowing to change BC and 3 won’t? Are you saying I’m a liar about those same states allowing the birth certificates change with only and orkie? You better do your research before you type that next word, or Mark Twain’s saying will fit you rather nicely.

    And Stelle, I won’t be at SCC this year. My son gets married in California that weekend and he’s more important than any other person, except his brother, my grandson and my mother. So, if you’re hoping to do a cage match, do it with Jennifer or Susan. I don’t give a flying fuck.

  50. Stellewriter says:

    I find the rhetoric and exchange not very tasteful and will not direct conversation to anyone directly. However, as a Transsexual, and one who would be dead if not transitioned, I can only say that my having a store bought vagina (if one is so vulgar to state it that way) is a life saver. Some other solution would not work for me. And in my understanding not for the larger community of those who are post-op. I cannot accept the larger bantering and rude comments being pased back and forth as doing anything but harm.

    How about all who seem to want to expend their frustrations, let’s gather next SCC and we will have a cage match and douse each other in oil. Then it is a match to the end…. Last person standing is the winner. Or if the mood changes in the mass of bodies all interlocked, the last standing is the loser!

    At least that would be better than the snipes on going here….

  51. Stellewriter says:

    I find the rhetoric and exchange not very tasteful and will not direct conversation to anyone directly. However, as a Transsexual, and one who would be dead if not transitioned, I can only say that my having a store bought vagina (if one is so vulgar to state it that way) is a life saver. Some other solution would not work for me. And in my understanding not for the larger community of those who are post-op. I cannot accept the larger bantering and rude comments being pased back and forth as doing anything but harm.

    How about all who seem to want to expend their frustrations, let’s gather next SCC and we will have a cage match and douse each other in oil. Then it is a match to the end…. Last person standing is the winner. Or if the mood changes in the mass of bodies all interlocked, the last standing is the loser!

    At least that would be better than the snipes on going here….

  52. Susan says:

    Monica Helms said:

    “This is exactly how the HBS people are acting about their after-market (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .”

    It’s statements like that which motivate transsexuals, both pre and post op. It’s also what drives us from opposing ANYTHING you might stand for…it is hate in its purest form. You have extreme nerve saying something like that. It’s the very position of the conservative right. It’s a good thing you are not on track for SRS. I’m sure you don’t wonder why transsexuals think you are a complete idiot. Only this blog would allow you to say that unchallenged, then again, Marti has essentially said the same thing.

    and Monica says:

    “The new vagina can only get your birth certificate changed in only 47 states. However, in those same 47 states, you can also get it changed with an orkie…”

    Is that the new definition of SRS…castration? I would enjoy seeing you substantiate that statement. In fact, you can NOT substantiate it, in spite of who you know who may have slipped through a state’s system and qualifications. Certainly the state I was born in wouldn’t allow it, and they have been changing BC’s for 40 years.

    Geeez…what a moron you are Monica. If NOT thinking the way you do labels me a gender fundamentalist, then color me extreme.

    If ever there was an example of the “difference” in the transgender mindset and that of the true transsexual, you make it admirably.

  53. Susan says:

    Monica Helms said:

    “This is exactly how the HBS people are acting about their after-market (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .”

    It’s statements like that which motivate transsexuals, both pre and post op. It’s also what drives us from opposing ANYTHING you might stand for…it is hate in its purest form. You have extreme nerve saying something like that. It’s the very position of the conservative right. It’s a good thing you are not on track for SRS. I’m sure you don’t wonder why transsexuals think you are a complete idiot. Only this blog would allow you to say that unchallenged, then again, Marti has essentially said the same thing.

    and Monica says:

    “The new vagina can only get your birth certificate changed in only 47 states. However, in those same 47 states, you can also get it changed with an orkie…”

    Is that the new definition of SRS…castration? I would enjoy seeing you substantiate that statement. In fact, you can NOT substantiate it, in spite of who you know who may have slipped through a state’s system and qualifications. Certainly the state I was born in wouldn’t allow it, and they have been changing BC’s for 40 years.

    Geeez…what a moron you are Monica. If NOT thinking the way you do labels me a gender fundamentalist, then color me extreme.

    If ever there was an example of the “difference” in the transgender mindset and that of the true transsexual, you make it admirably.

  54. Val says:

    As I thought she might, Jennifer posted on my blog, continuing this argument and responding to it without any sense of context with respect to where she placed her post.

    I banned her outright. Personal insult I will endure… pure trolling behavior is unacceptable.

  55. Val says:

    As I thought she might, Jennifer posted on my blog, continuing this argument and responding to it without any sense of context with respect to where she placed her post.

    I banned her outright. Personal insult I will endure… pure trolling behavior is unacceptable.

  56. Monica Helms says:

    Damn. We can get back to normal bitching and moaning now? Thank you for the early birthday present, Marti.

  57. Monica Helms says:

    Damn. We can get back to normal bitching and moaning now? Thank you for the early birthday present, Marti.

  58. Marti Abernathey says:

    LOL. You’re calling me a man? Wow… that’s some gall coming from you.

    Since you cannot give the same courtesy, you seem to want from others, “Just Jennifer, consider yourself IP and email banned. This isn’t a free for all. If you can’t come here and show some respect for others, you won’t come here at all.

    I’ve seen on other places through a google search that your name and email is associated with Jennifer Usher. JU has a long history of flame wars if I remember correctly.

    Note to commenters, this IS NOT alt.srs.

  59. Marti Abernathey says:

    LOL. You’re calling me a man? Wow… that’s some gall coming from you.

    Since you cannot give the same courtesy, you seem to want from others, “Just Jennifer, consider yourself IP and email banned. This isn’t a free for all. If you can’t come here and show some respect for others, you won’t come here at all.

    I’ve seen on other places through a google search that your name and email is associated with Jennifer Usher. JU has a long history of flame wars if I remember correctly.

    Note to commenters, this IS NOT alt.srs.

  60. Monica Helms says:

    The Today Show was here in Atlanta this morning, at the Atlanta Aquarum. They had a question on what was the most dangerous fish in the big tank. It was a grouper. They will sneak up on their prey from behind coral or rocks and weigh up to 220 lbs. What was interesting was what they said about this fish. It starts off to be a female and becomes an “angry male.” I suppose they would be acceptable in Iran, because of being an angry male.

    Jennifer is angry. Hummmm. Not saying anything. Come to your own conclusions.

  61. Monica Helms says:

    The Today Show was here in Atlanta this morning, at the Atlanta Aquarum. They had a question on what was the most dangerous fish in the big tank. It was a grouper. They will sneak up on their prey from behind coral or rocks and weigh up to 220 lbs. What was interesting was what they said about this fish. It starts off to be a female and becomes an “angry male.” I suppose they would be acceptable in Iran, because of being an angry male.

    Jennifer is angry. Hummmm. Not saying anything. Come to your own conclusions.

  62. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer wrote, “Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender.”

    Like it or not, you have contributed to that movement, WomanWithProstateAndXYChromosomes.

    Sex differentiation in all sexually dimorphic species is a complex, often messy process. Male and female are generalizations. Sex is a spectrum.

    ManWithPenisAndVagina

  63. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer wrote, “Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender.”

    Like it or not, you have contributed to that movement, WomanWithProstateAndXYChromosomes.

    Sex differentiation in all sexually dimorphic species is a complex, often messy process. Male and female are generalizations. Sex is a spectrum.

    ManWithPenisAndVagina

  64. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer wrote, “Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender.”

    Like it or not, you have contributed to that movement, WomanWithProstateAndXYChromosomes.

    Sex differentiation in all sexually dimorphic species is a complex, often messy process. Male and female are generalizations. Sex is a spectrum.

    ManWithPenisAndVagina

  65. Monica Helms says:

    Jennifer, have you ever met Virgina . . . or me?

  66. Monica Helms says:

    Jennifer, have you ever met Virgina . . . or me?

  67. Val says:

    > Mr. Helms is a classic alpha male

    So are you.
    So?

  68. Val says:

    > Mr. Helms is a classic alpha male

    So are you.
    So?

  69. Val says:

    > Mr. Helms is a classic alpha male

    So are you.
    So?

  70. Val says:

    > Words do evolve.

    Indeed. On which grounds, you are invited to stop bringing up Virginia Prince.

    The point is that fundamentalists like yourself persist in inferring that anyone who identifies as transgender is not transsexual in any meaningful sense, and therefore cannot even be accorded the common courtesy of the proper pronoun.

    Further, the social movement to undermine strictly binary gender is not fairly laid only at the feet of the transgender identity. It is a direct outgrowth of sound feminist principles, and is even the bedrock of the radical separatist feminism with which your own cohort has sometimes found common cause.

    The fact is that people come in a lot of flavors, and there’s no reason at all why transpeople should not also, without having their core sense utterly dismissed by people who are simply uncomfortable with variety, out of some imagined sense of threat.

    Finally, “transgender” is not an arbitrary identity which you do have the authority to wave your pretty little hand at and erase. For the people who operate in its framework, it adequately describes a range of transsexual (and other) experiences, and is thus real to them.

  71. Val says:

    > Words do evolve.

    Indeed. On which grounds, you are invited to stop bringing up Virginia Prince.

    The point is that fundamentalists like yourself persist in inferring that anyone who identifies as transgender is not transsexual in any meaningful sense, and therefore cannot even be accorded the common courtesy of the proper pronoun.

    Further, the social movement to undermine strictly binary gender is not fairly laid only at the feet of the transgender identity. It is a direct outgrowth of sound feminist principles, and is even the bedrock of the radical separatist feminism with which your own cohort has sometimes found common cause.

    The fact is that people come in a lot of flavors, and there’s no reason at all why transpeople should not also, without having their core sense utterly dismissed by people who are simply uncomfortable with variety, out of some imagined sense of threat.

    Finally, “transgender” is not an arbitrary identity which you do have the authority to wave your pretty little hand at and erase. For the people who operate in its framework, it adequately describes a range of transsexual (and other) experiences, and is thus real to them.

  72. Again, its funny that Mr. Helms tries to trash Mr. Prince, since they are virtually identical in thinking. But, we have to remember, Mr. Helms is a classic alpha male, and can’t stand the idea that Prince might still be relevant, even as he copies him.

  73. Again, its funny that Mr. Helms tries to trash Mr. Prince, since they are virtually identical in thinking. But, we have to remember, Mr. Helms is a classic alpha male, and can’t stand the idea that Prince might still be relevant, even as he copies him.

  74. Val, quite frankly, I have no desire to have much of anything to do with transpeople, whether conformant, or not. But, it is kind of ironic that you complain about Prince, when Helms is doing a dead on impersonation of him.

    And it is amazing that you really seem to work so hard at missing the point. Yes, some transsexuals identify as “transgender,” the key word being “IDENTIFY.” I don”t deny that identification to anyone, though I think people SHOULD be aware of what that term is coming to mean. Words do evolve. It originated at a term that was exclusive of transsexuals. It became an artificial construct that attempted to unite a diverse group into a cohesive force. Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender. Most of us balked at the idea of being united, and now we are especially appalled at tendency towards it being a political movement. I would strongly suggest you read Dallas Denny’s essay in the book “Transgender Subjectivities” where he talks about a “transgender model” vs. a “transsexual model” of providing care. It is very enlightening as exactly where people like Helms are coming from.

  75. Val, quite frankly, I have no desire to have much of anything to do with transpeople, whether conformant, or not. But, it is kind of ironic that you complain about Prince, when Helms is doing a dead on impersonation of him.

    And it is amazing that you really seem to work so hard at missing the point. Yes, some transsexuals identify as “transgender,” the key word being “IDENTIFY.” I don”t deny that identification to anyone, though I think people SHOULD be aware of what that term is coming to mean. Words do evolve. It originated at a term that was exclusive of transsexuals. It became an artificial construct that attempted to unite a diverse group into a cohesive force. Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender. Most of us balked at the idea of being united, and now we are especially appalled at tendency towards it being a political movement. I would strongly suggest you read Dallas Denny’s essay in the book “Transgender Subjectivities” where he talks about a “transgender model” vs. a “transsexual model” of providing care. It is very enlightening as exactly where people like Helms are coming from.

  76. Val, quite frankly, I have no desire to have much of anything to do with transpeople, whether conformant, or not. But, it is kind of ironic that you complain about Prince, when Helms is doing a dead on impersonation of him.

    And it is amazing that you really seem to work so hard at missing the point. Yes, some transsexuals identify as “transgender,” the key word being “IDENTIFY.” I don”t deny that identification to anyone, though I think people SHOULD be aware of what that term is coming to mean. Words do evolve. It originated at a term that was exclusive of transsexuals. It became an artificial construct that attempted to unite a diverse group into a cohesive force. Now it is evolving into social and political movement that seeks to undermine binary gender. Most of us balked at the idea of being united, and now we are especially appalled at tendency towards it being a political movement. I would strongly suggest you read Dallas Denny’s essay in the book “Transgender Subjectivities” where he talks about a “transgender model” vs. a “transsexual model” of providing care. It is very enlightening as exactly where people like Helms are coming from.

  77. Monica Helms says:

    Point taken, Val.

    The new vagina can only get your birth certificate changed in only 47 states. However, in those same 47 states, you can also get it changed with an orkie, because as you say, that is the “primary sex organ.” The doctors consider that a “gender altering operation.” I know several trans women who only have an orkie and are just as legal as any HBS person.

    Val, are you aware that after many years of hormones, a trans woman’s penis shrinks the size of that of a pre-pubesent boy and no longer works, or is no longer sensitive? I know of some trans men whose clitoris has grown to the size that my penis has shrunk to. We’re meeting somewhere in the middle.

  78. Monica Helms says:

    Point taken, Val.

    The new vagina can only get your birth certificate changed in only 47 states. However, in those same 47 states, you can also get it changed with an orkie, because as you say, that is the “primary sex organ.” The doctors consider that a “gender altering operation.” I know several trans women who only have an orkie and are just as legal as any HBS person.

    Val, are you aware that after many years of hormones, a trans woman’s penis shrinks the size of that of a pre-pubesent boy and no longer works, or is no longer sensitive? I know of some trans men whose clitoris has grown to the size that my penis has shrunk to. We’re meeting somewhere in the middle.

  79. Felix says:

    I think Val has made a valuable point there. Zeal in “whapping fundies” can cause hurt and misunderstanding all round. There are differences between the “factory model” female body and the transitioned woman’s and this not be forgotten when seeking health care. She will always have a prostate gland, for example but will never have ovaries. This does not make her a “man” but it DOES make her a person with some residual male anatomy, just as I will always be a person with some female anatomy no matter if my legal gender is Male. I think this was the original concept which was voiced way back in the mists of time against the “essentialist” model of gender.

  80. Felix says:

    I think Val has made a valuable point there. Zeal in “whapping fundies” can cause hurt and misunderstanding all round. There are differences between the “factory model” female body and the transitioned woman’s and this not be forgotten when seeking health care. She will always have a prostate gland, for example but will never have ovaries. This does not make her a “man” but it DOES make her a person with some residual male anatomy, just as I will always be a person with some female anatomy no matter if my legal gender is Male. I think this was the original concept which was voiced way back in the mists of time against the “essentialist” model of gender.

  81. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer wrote, “And it is his contention that women can, and perhaps, should, have penises?”

    All natal females have penises. The clitoris is an undeveloped penis. It has the same basic structure, innervation, etc. as the male penis. Or, I could alternatively assert that Miss. Helms has an enlarged clitoris.

    My point is, So what?

  82. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer wrote, “And it is his contention that women can, and perhaps, should, have penises?”

    All natal females have penises. The clitoris is an undeveloped penis. It has the same basic structure, innervation, etc. as the male penis. Or, I could alternatively assert that Miss. Helms has an enlarged clitoris.

    My point is, So what?

  83. Val says:

    > the extremely patriarchal fixation on the phallus as the ultimate evidence of sex

    It’s especially interesting since Harry Benjamin identified the penis as a secondary sex organ, and the testes as the primary… removal of which, however, does not pass fundamentalist muster.

  84. Val says:

    > the extremely patriarchal fixation on the phallus as the ultimate evidence of sex

    It’s especially interesting since Harry Benjamin identified the penis as a secondary sex organ, and the testes as the primary… removal of which, however, does not pass fundamentalist muster.

  85. Val says:

    > (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .

    I have to say, Monica, that this is where I part company. Certainly, a neovagina is a surgical result. But in your zeal to whap the fundies, I think you and Marti both can sometimes wind up speaking against the needs and feelings of seriously dysphoric people.

    And as I’ve said before, it’s sort of a moot point, in those areas that ought to be relevant to us. The fact is that the surgery does permit a change in birth certificate and other documents in many areas. Legally, the neovagina is sufficiently “real” to allow the patient to be recognized as a woman – even if that recognition is more contingent than many would wish.

    Don’t you think that your own (psychological) claims might be considered less “fake”, if you weren’t so quick to dismiss as fake the (physical) nature of others?

  86. Val says:

    > (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .

    I have to say, Monica, that this is where I part company. Certainly, a neovagina is a surgical result. But in your zeal to whap the fundies, I think you and Marti both can sometimes wind up speaking against the needs and feelings of seriously dysphoric people.

    And as I’ve said before, it’s sort of a moot point, in those areas that ought to be relevant to us. The fact is that the surgery does permit a change in birth certificate and other documents in many areas. Legally, the neovagina is sufficiently “real” to allow the patient to be recognized as a woman – even if that recognition is more contingent than many would wish.

    Don’t you think that your own (psychological) claims might be considered less “fake”, if you weren’t so quick to dismiss as fake the (physical) nature of others?

  87. Felix says:

    I find it fascinating – and phallocentric – that the presence or absence of a penis as gender signifier comes up (no pun intended) again and again in these posts, as it does in the wider society. The presence or absence of a clitoris seems to be of no interest or account. This is not in reference to any surgery that transmen may or nor may not find available – simply a commentary on the extremely patriarchal fixation on the phallus as the ultimate evidence of sex.

  88. Felix says:

    I find it fascinating – and phallocentric – that the presence or absence of a penis as gender signifier comes up (no pun intended) again and again in these posts, as it does in the wider society. The presence or absence of a clitoris seems to be of no interest or account. This is not in reference to any surgery that transmen may or nor may not find available – simply a commentary on the extremely patriarchal fixation on the phallus as the ultimate evidence of sex.

  89. Monica Helms says:

    Imagine a web site where people who own fake Rolex watches discussed all the wonderful reasons for having a fake Rolex, and even put down people who either don’t own a fake Rolex, or don’t own a watch at all. They even act superior for owning something fake, even more superior than those who have real Rolexes.

    This is exactly how the HBS people are acting about their after-market (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .

  90. Monica Helms says:

    Virgina Prince is nearly 100 years old and is about a relevent in the last 30 years as the Naru jacket and sock hops . . . or, about a relevant as Jennifer. It amazes me how people’s minds can be stuck in another time period forever. It’s sort-of like the Religious fundamentalists stuck in the June Cleaver world. But, Jennifer is not any different then the Religious Right, and think just like them.

    Hey, Jennifer! This is 2008 . . . you know, the TEWNTY-FIRST Century.

    “Mother Nature can think beyond binaries. Human Nature (and HBS bigots) cannot.”

  91. Monica Helms says:

    Virgina Prince is nearly 100 years old and is about a relevent in the last 30 years as the Naru jacket and sock hops . . . or, about a relevant as Jennifer. It amazes me how people’s minds can be stuck in another time period forever. It’s sort-of like the Religious fundamentalists stuck in the June Cleaver world. But, Jennifer is not any different then the Religious Right, and think just like them.

    Hey, Jennifer! This is 2008 . . . you know, the TEWNTY-FIRST Century.

    “Mother Nature can think beyond binaries. Human Nature (and HBS bigots) cannot.”

  92. Val, it is interesting that you would bring that up…one of the things that first brought some of these blogs to my attention was someone attacking a HBS woman, and saying that post-ops are really men. I can’t recall who made that post, but I do recall it was one of the gender fascists. Oh well…we are certainly entitled to our own opinions. But I think you will find that very few people accept the idea that women have penises.

  93. Val, it is interesting that you would bring that up…one of the things that first brought some of these blogs to my attention was someone attacking a HBS woman, and saying that post-ops are really men. I can’t recall who made that post, but I do recall it was one of the gender fascists. Oh well…we are certainly entitled to our own opinions. But I think you will find that very few people accept the idea that women have penises.

  94. Val says:

    You seem to think that the unsavory provenance of the word “transgender” is some kind of bludgeon with which you can beat nonconformant transpeople. It’s all in your head, of course. No one really cares about Virginia Prince anymore, except the people in your cohort. He’s dead and gone and, y’know… *yawn*.

    > we should be forced under your imaginary umbrella.

    Where do you perceive forcing? I fully acknowledge that there are transsexuals who do not identify as transgender. As I said… Fine. Done. Reject all you like. Make your own case, on your own terms, and with your own resources.

    > Now, of course some transsexuals identify as transgender

    Ah. So you do admit it, after all. Identifying as transgender is not mutually exclusive with being transsexual. And yet your own loathing of the idea of the historical background of “transgender” is so overpowering that you would specifically deny that identification, even to other transsexuals.

    I think you’ve become fixated on the false idea that “transgender” means “non-op” or anything to its left (toward TVism). I don’t know of you really believe that – as you would be foolish to do – or whether, as I suspect, you cling to it as a strategic basis for your monotonous calumny.

  95. Val says:

    You seem to think that the unsavory provenance of the word “transgender” is some kind of bludgeon with which you can beat nonconformant transpeople. It’s all in your head, of course. No one really cares about Virginia Prince anymore, except the people in your cohort. He’s dead and gone and, y’know… *yawn*.

    > we should be forced under your imaginary umbrella.

    Where do you perceive forcing? I fully acknowledge that there are transsexuals who do not identify as transgender. As I said… Fine. Done. Reject all you like. Make your own case, on your own terms, and with your own resources.

    > Now, of course some transsexuals identify as transgender

    Ah. So you do admit it, after all. Identifying as transgender is not mutually exclusive with being transsexual. And yet your own loathing of the idea of the historical background of “transgender” is so overpowering that you would specifically deny that identification, even to other transsexuals.

    I think you’ve become fixated on the false idea that “transgender” means “non-op” or anything to its left (toward TVism). I don’t know of you really believe that – as you would be foolish to do – or whether, as I suspect, you cling to it as a strategic basis for your monotonous calumny.

  96. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer, Leigh– Clearly you have decided that you and your own possess the absolute Truth. You are “Real” transsexuals and many of us who think we’re transsexuals are really a lesser class you have designated as “transgenders.” This self-superior need to control others through labeling is a classically masculine behavior, though, in your defense, it’s quite common in teenage girls nowadays. I hope that by the time you have become women, you will have learned a little humility and kindness.

  97. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Just Jennifer, Leigh– Clearly you have decided that you and your own possess the absolute Truth. You are “Real” transsexuals and many of us who think we’re transsexuals are really a lesser class you have designated as “transgenders.” This self-superior need to control others through labeling is a classically masculine behavior, though, in your defense, it’s quite common in teenage girls nowadays. I hope that by the time you have become women, you will have learned a little humility and kindness.

  98. No, Mr. Helms, you are doing a fine job of showing yourself to be a fool without my help. Besides, I doubt there is much doubt about your being a fool left to remove.

  99. No, Mr. Helms, you are doing a fine job of showing yourself to be a fool without my help. Besides, I doubt there is much doubt about your being a fool left to remove.

  100. Really Val, are you just trying to play dumb, or is that for real? “Transgender” was coined as a term to specifically exclude transsexuals. It was created by a guy who called himself Charles “Virginia” Prince, though that was not his real name. I forget what his real name was, but Charles Prince was a pseudonym. He was a lot like Helms, a man who decided he wanted to play dress-up full time. And like Helms, he bitterly hated transsexuals. The difference is, he didn’t realize that he could hide his shame by pretending to be a transsexual. No, there is a difference. “Transgender” is an identity that anyone can adopt, or reject. Some of use choose, rather adamantly, to reject it. Unfortunately, some, like Mr. Helms, and it would appear yourself, think we should be forced under your imaginary umbrella. Transgender has no real meaning except as an identity and as a point of view. Now, of course some transsexuals identify as transgender, but that does not mean that transsexual people, or anyone else, should be forced to accept that identity. Again, if the gender fascists would just back off, and speak in terms of people who identify as transgender, we could end these silly feuds.

  101. Really Val, are you just trying to play dumb, or is that for real? “Transgender” was coined as a term to specifically exclude transsexuals. It was created by a guy who called himself Charles “Virginia” Prince, though that was not his real name. I forget what his real name was, but Charles Prince was a pseudonym. He was a lot like Helms, a man who decided he wanted to play dress-up full time. And like Helms, he bitterly hated transsexuals. The difference is, he didn’t realize that he could hide his shame by pretending to be a transsexual. No, there is a difference. “Transgender” is an identity that anyone can adopt, or reject. Some of use choose, rather adamantly, to reject it. Unfortunately, some, like Mr. Helms, and it would appear yourself, think we should be forced under your imaginary umbrella. Transgender has no real meaning except as an identity and as a point of view. Now, of course some transsexuals identify as transgender, but that does not mean that transsexual people, or anyone else, should be forced to accept that identity. Again, if the gender fascists would just back off, and speak in terms of people who identify as transgender, we could end these silly feuds.

  102. Val says:

    Monica, since “Mr. Helms” seems to be the trope of the day, I find myself wishing that you had dropped the “s” from the end of that name.

    Dean Martin was so cool, in a wonderfully tacky sort of way.

  103. Val says:

    Monica, since “Mr. Helms” seems to be the trope of the day, I find myself wishing that you had dropped the “s” from the end of that name.

    Dean Martin was so cool, in a wonderfully tacky sort of way.

  104. Val says:

    > You sir, are just a classic redneck bully, looking to push around women who won’t give in to you.

    I don’t understand what you seem to think that “Mr. Helms” is requiring you to give in to. You are not transgender? Fine. Done. You think Monica is a male? Fine. Done.

    So what?

  105. Val says:

    > You sir, are just a classic redneck bully, looking to push around women who won’t give in to you.

    I don’t understand what you seem to think that “Mr. Helms” is requiring you to give in to. You are not transgender? Fine. Done. You think Monica is a male? Fine. Done.

    So what?

  106. Val says:

    > who has stated, rather strongly, that he has absolutly no desire or intentions of ever having SRS?

    I think she has actually stated otherwise. I even think you know it.

    > I do not see men with penises, who wish to keep those penises, as women

    I could just easily make the assertion that people who were born with penises are always men, no matter what surgery they undergo and no matter what hidden conditions they may claim… and that assertion would be based on the same completely pragamatic grounds on which you seek to make your own distinctions.

    As a matter of fact I don’t make such an assertion, but your absolute refusal to accept the statements of anyone else regarding their own sense of themselves, while reserving an absolute privilege to be understood exactly on your own terms, certainly invites it.

  107. Val says:

    > who has stated, rather strongly, that he has absolutly no desire or intentions of ever having SRS?

    I think she has actually stated otherwise. I even think you know it.

    > I do not see men with penises, who wish to keep those penises, as women

    I could just easily make the assertion that people who were born with penises are always men, no matter what surgery they undergo and no matter what hidden conditions they may claim… and that assertion would be based on the same completely pragamatic grounds on which you seek to make your own distinctions.

    As a matter of fact I don’t make such an assertion, but your absolute refusal to accept the statements of anyone else regarding their own sense of themselves, while reserving an absolute privilege to be understood exactly on your own terms, certainly invites it.

  108. Really Mr. Helms? I am certainly fighting with you, and trust me, you are as much of a man as Felix. The difference is, he is a bit more of a gentleman. You sir, are just a classic redneck bully, looking to push around women who won’t give in to you.

    Don’t flatter yourself.

  109. Really Mr. Helms? I am certainly fighting with you, and trust me, you are as much of a man as Felix. The difference is, he is a bit more of a gentleman. You sir, are just a classic redneck bully, looking to push around women who won’t give in to you.

    Don’t flatter yourself.

  110. Felix, so far, you have been relatively polite and reasonable in your debating. I see no reason to pick a fight with you, nor have you chosen to pick a fight with me. Further, I understand the issues that FTMs face, and I understand the limitations of the available surgery.

  111. Felix, so far, you have been relatively polite and reasonable in your debating. I see no reason to pick a fight with you, nor have you chosen to pick a fight with me. Further, I understand the issues that FTMs face, and I understand the limitations of the available surgery.

  112. Well, Stelle, first off, you better be careful. You keep making sense like that, and Mr. Helms will be brushing you aside with the rest of us ants. We pretty much seem to be more in agreement than not.

    Where we seem to differ is that I see no advantage, and much disadvantage to uniting with the likes of Helms, Abernathy, and the rest of the “gender fascists.”

  113. Well, Stelle, first off, you better be careful. You keep making sense like that, and Mr. Helms will be brushing you aside with the rest of us ants. We pretty much seem to be more in agreement than not.

    Where we seem to differ is that I see no advantage, and much disadvantage to uniting with the likes of Helms, Abernathy, and the rest of the “gender fascists.”

  114. ROTFL! Why Mr. Helms, that is kind of you to say, but we both know you are full of crap and completely insincere. But hey, nice try.

  115. ROTFL! Why Mr. Helms, that is kind of you to say, but we both know you are full of crap and completely insincere. But hey, nice try.

  116. Sorry Val, but Nexy’s law is, well, Nexy’s law. It is not worth much of anything. But nice try.

    Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t Mr. Helms an intact male, who has stated, rather strongly, that he has absolutly no desire or intentions of ever having SRS? And it is his contention that women can, and perhaps, should, have penises? Right? So, I am simply expressing my disdain for that argument, and making it as clear as possible that I do not see men with penises, who wish to keep those penises, as women.

  117. Sorry Val, but Nexy’s law is, well, Nexy’s law. It is not worth much of anything. But nice try.

    Now, correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t Mr. Helms an intact male, who has stated, rather strongly, that he has absolutly no desire or intentions of ever having SRS? And it is his contention that women can, and perhaps, should, have penises? Right? So, I am simply expressing my disdain for that argument, and making it as clear as possible that I do not see men with penises, who wish to keep those penises, as women.

  118. Monica Helms says:

    HBS is also a social construct that has no valid scientific or medical data to support it. They use existing information and bastardize it for their own purposes. Sort of like the saying, “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.” BS. And, since they created this concept out of thin air, it has no room for anyone but trans women with after-market vaginas. Felix, you can’t qualify because yours was factory installed.

    • Susan says:

      Monica, up there on Comment #99 you were obviously very confident, and I am sure you were not so ignorant to make the comments you did, i.e., ALL 47 states consider an orchiectomy a sex change without having read that somewhere…so post the link to where you read that so that someone can correct your source.

      Of course, if you just made it up…then “You better do your research before you type that next word, or Mark Twain’s saying will fit you rather nicely.”

      BTW…I don’t cage wrestle…I transitioned to be as female as I can be…including behave, talk, walk, GRS, etc. No need to transition to female, you know, if afterwards one is still going to behave as a guy. *S*

  119. Monica Helms says:

    HBS is also a social construct that has no valid scientific or medical data to support it. They use existing information and bastardize it for their own purposes. Sort of like the saying, “Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.” BS. And, since they created this concept out of thin air, it has no room for anyone but trans women with after-market vaginas. Felix, you can’t qualify because yours was factory installed.

    • Monica Helms says:

      Imagine a web site where people who own fake Rolex watches discussed all the wonderful reasons for having a fake Rolex, and even put down people who either don’t own a fake Rolex, or don’t own a watch at all. They even act superior for owning something fake, even more superior than those who have real Rolexes.

      This is exactly how the HBS people are acting about their after-market (insert “fake”) vaginas. They may look like the real thing, but . . .

  120. Felix says:

    I wish some of the gender fundamentalists could meet with some of the FTMs from the UK. They would see how TG, TS and other people get on well with each other and offer mutual support and friendship. There’s none of this divisiveness along indentities from the straightest of straight transguys to the queeniest, mascara wearing ones. Some in my group have passed and lived as guys since adolescence; others (myself included0 came to a more male identity in middle age after a lifetime of confusion. Some are celibate, some have had both male and female partners, some have given birth. Some still menstruate, some don’t. They are taxi drivers, artists, academics, football coaches and many other things besides. I have never in my life experienced anything among the FTM population like we have on here. Where are the HBS guys, by the way?

  121. Val says:

    > Even though I have, or imagine I have, friends who are Transgender, few understand what is inside of the engine that drives the Transsexual.

    Even the transsexual ones?

    “Transgender” is largely a broad sociopolitical identification. “Transsexual” is a more specific term referring to a smaller cluster of motivations and behaviors. They are not mutually exclusive. The fact that the working concept of “transgender” includes non-transsexual people, does not mean that all transgender people are non-transsexual. Neither does the insistence on the part of some transsexual people that they are not transgender invalidate the transsexualism of those who are less orthodox.

    What we call a “fundementalist” is someone who believes that, based on their own experience, they can infallibly assert that no transsexual can also be in any way transgender, even in the face of the evidence and narratives of real peoples’ lives.

  122. Felix says:

    I wish some of the gender fundamentalists could meet with some of the FTMs from the UK. They would see how TG, TS and other people get on well with each other and offer mutual support and friendship. There’s none of this divisiveness along indentities from the straightest of straight transguys to the queeniest, mascara wearing ones. Some in my group have passed and lived as guys since adolescence; others (myself included0 came to a more male identity in middle age after a lifetime of confusion. Some are celibate, some have had both male and female partners, some have given birth. Some still menstruate, some don’t. They are taxi drivers, artists, academics, football coaches and many other things besides. I have never in my life experienced anything among the FTM population like we have on here. Where are the HBS guys, by the way?

  123. Felix says:

    I wish some of the gender fundamentalists could meet with some of the FTMs from the UK. They would see how TG, TS and other people get on well with each other and offer mutual support and friendship. There’s none of this divisiveness along indentities from the straightest of straight transguys to the queeniest, mascara wearing ones. Some in my group have passed and lived as guys since adolescence; others (myself included0 came to a more male identity in middle age after a lifetime of confusion. Some are celibate, some have had both male and female partners, some have given birth. Some still menstruate, some don’t. They are taxi drivers, artists, academics, football coaches and many other things besides. I have never in my life experienced anything among the FTM population like we have on here. Where are the HBS guys, by the way?

  124. Val says:

    > Even though I have, or imagine I have, friends who are Transgender, few understand what is inside of the engine that drives the Transsexual.

    Even the transsexual ones?

    “Transgender” is largely a broad sociopolitical identification. “Transsexual” is a more specific term referring to a smaller cluster of motivations and behaviors. They are not mutually exclusive. The fact that the working concept of “transgender” includes non-transsexual people, does not mean that all transgender people are non-transsexual. Neither does the insistence on the part of some transsexual people that they are not transgender invalidate the transsexualism of those who are less orthodox.

    What we call a “fundementalist” is someone who believes that, based on their own experience, they can infallibly assert that no transsexual can also be in any way transgender, even in the face of the evidence and narratives of real peoples’ lives.

  125. Monica Helms says:

    Felix, you’re safe. She only has the balls to pick on women.

  126. Monica Helms says:

    Felix, you’re safe. She only has the balls to pick on women.

  127. Monica Helms says:

    H.G. Wells said, “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.” Are you jealous, Jennifer?

  128. Monica Helms says:

    H.G. Wells said, “Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo.” Are you jealous, Jennifer?

  129. Felix says:

    It’s interesting that Jennifer hasn’t once referred to me as “she” although I don’t have a penis (as such). 🙂

  130. Felix says:

    It’s interesting that Jennifer hasn’t once referred to me as “she” although I don’t have a penis (as such). 🙂

  131. Monica Helms says:

    Also, Mark Twain said, “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    Care to continue removing all doubt, Jennifer?

  132. Monica Helms says:

    Also, Mark Twain said, “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    Care to continue removing all doubt, Jennifer?

  133. Monica Helms says:

    Also, Mark Twain said, “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    Care to continue removing all doubt, Jennifer?

  134. Stellewriter says:

    Without question there is a difference between those who are Transsexual and the Transgender. Probably as much as the difference in needs and desires of those who are gay and those who are not.

    Even though I have, or imagine I have, friends who are Transgender, few understand what is inside of the engine that drives the Transsexual. It is not a wrong thing, but it goes nowhere in trying to establish communication and mutual respect, which is exactly the same dichotomy that exists between the HRC gay coalition and the transgender community at large.

    The elitist gay see the Transgender as scum, and laugh. They see the Transsexual as a serious threat and hate us. Whether we espouse an understanding of “Gender fundamentalism”, or “Gender Fascists”, or any other perspective, there are clear differences between each of us. It may not be black and white, shades of gray, or a rainbow of colors either. Instead of picking apart each other and trying to dig to the bone, would it not make sense to promote better understanding of the differences, and common points of identification? Would it not be better to accept our differences and not be like the rest of society who insists we fit into their mold? Or, worse, a hostile and evil boding GLBt internment camp?

    All much to “THINK” about, does not one think it about time………..

  135. Stellewriter says:

    Without question there is a difference between those who are Transsexual and the Transgender. Probably as much as the difference in needs and desires of those who are gay and those who are not.

    Even though I have, or imagine I have, friends who are Transgender, few understand what is inside of the engine that drives the Transsexual. It is not a wrong thing, but it goes nowhere in trying to establish communication and mutual respect, which is exactly the same dichotomy that exists between the HRC gay coalition and the transgender community at large.

    The elitist gay see the Transgender as scum, and laugh. They see the Transsexual as a serious threat and hate us. Whether we espouse an understanding of “Gender fundamentalism”, or “Gender Fascists”, or any other perspective, there are clear differences between each of us. It may not be black and white, shades of gray, or a rainbow of colors either. Instead of picking apart each other and trying to dig to the bone, would it not make sense to promote better understanding of the differences, and common points of identification? Would it not be better to accept our differences and not be like the rest of society who insists we fit into their mold? Or, worse, a hostile and evil boding GLBt internment camp?

    All much to “THINK” about, does not one think it about time………..

  136. Monica Helms says:

    Gandhi once said, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” I forgive you, Jennifer.

  137. Monica Helms says:

    Gandhi once said, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” I forgive you, Jennifer.

  138. Monica Helms says:

    Gandhi once said, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” I forgive you, Jennifer.

  139. Monica Helms says:

    Gandhi once said, “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” I forgive you, Jennifer.

  140. Val says:

    I love the fact that Jennifer is so unimaginative that she really thinks that taking every opportunity to refer to everyone not fully initiated into her little clique as “he” and “Mr.” and so on is just so devastating.

    It’s like an eight-year old who has just learned the word “fart” and thinks it so terribly risque.

    Apparently she is unaware that, as per the First Corollary of Nexy’s Law, she lost the whole game when she started.

  141. Val says:

    I love the fact that Jennifer is so unimaginative that she really thinks that taking every opportunity to refer to everyone not fully initiated into her little clique as “he” and “Mr.” and so on is just so devastating.

    It’s like an eight-year old who has just learned the word “fart” and thinks it so terribly risque.

    Apparently she is unaware that, as per the First Corollary of Nexy’s Law, she lost the whole game when she started.

  142. Monica Helms says:

    By the way, Stelle is a personal friend of mine and lives here in GA. She understands the concept of “respect,” something Jennifer will never understand.

    The constant hate and use of male pronouns shows a deep hatred for yourself. You have problems that you cannot seem to overcome, so to make yourself feel better, you come to places like here to artificially boost your self-worth by putting others down. But, in reality, when you log off of the computer, your problems still exist. And, me? I get to go home to my wonderful house. I go down to my basement and work on projects that have nothing to do with trans anything.

    And, if I do anything that pisses you off, or makes your life miserable, then tough shit. I’ll just consider that iceing on the cake of life.

    So, please keep up with all of the hate speech if that makes you feel better. You don’t affect my life any more than the tiny ant crawling across my kitchen counter, and you are just as easy to brush aside.

  143. Monica Helms says:

    By the way, Stelle is a personal friend of mine and lives here in GA. She understands the concept of “respect,” something Jennifer will never understand.

    The constant hate and use of male pronouns shows a deep hatred for yourself. You have problems that you cannot seem to overcome, so to make yourself feel better, you come to places like here to artificially boost your self-worth by putting others down. But, in reality, when you log off of the computer, your problems still exist. And, me? I get to go home to my wonderful house. I go down to my basement and work on projects that have nothing to do with trans anything.

    And, if I do anything that pisses you off, or makes your life miserable, then tough shit. I’ll just consider that iceing on the cake of life.

    So, please keep up with all of the hate speech if that makes you feel better. You don’t affect my life any more than the tiny ant crawling across my kitchen counter, and you are just as easy to brush aside.

  144. Monica Helms says:

    By the way, Stelle is a personal friend of mine and lives here in GA. She understands the concept of “respect,” something Jennifer will never understand.

    The constant hate and use of male pronouns shows a deep hatred for yourself. You have problems that you cannot seem to overcome, so to make yourself feel better, you come to places like here to artificially boost your self-worth by putting others down. But, in reality, when you log off of the computer, your problems still exist. And, me? I get to go home to my wonderful house. I go down to my basement and work on projects that have nothing to do with trans anything.

    And, if I do anything that pisses you off, or makes your life miserable, then tough shit. I’ll just consider that iceing on the cake of life.

    So, please keep up with all of the hate speech if that makes you feel better. You don’t affect my life any more than the tiny ant crawling across my kitchen counter, and you are just as easy to brush aside.

  145. Ah, Mr. Helms, of course I read that bit of drivel…what do you think inspired me to refer to you as “gender fascists.” And thanks for letting me know where you buy your sheets. But I have no use for such. As I have said, I am not part of your little boy’s club.

    And you really should get a dictionary. If you look up the word “bigot” you will discover that it does not mean “someone who disagrees with Mr. Monica Helms.” I’m sorry you feel the need to attack anyone who is not willing to join your lockstep march, but hey, you might consider reading my article on “Gender Fascists.” It’s specifically about you, and your ilk.

  146. Ah, Mr. Helms, of course I read that bit of drivel…what do you think inspired me to refer to you as “gender fascists.” And thanks for letting me know where you buy your sheets. But I have no use for such. As I have said, I am not part of your little boy’s club.

    And you really should get a dictionary. If you look up the word “bigot” you will discover that it does not mean “someone who disagrees with Mr. Monica Helms.” I’m sorry you feel the need to attack anyone who is not willing to join your lockstep march, but hey, you might consider reading my article on “Gender Fascists.” It’s specifically about you, and your ilk.

  147. Ah, Mr. Helms, of course I read that bit of drivel…what do you think inspired me to refer to you as “gender fascists.” And thanks for letting me know where you buy your sheets. But I have no use for such. As I have said, I am not part of your little boy’s club.

    And you really should get a dictionary. If you look up the word “bigot” you will discover that it does not mean “someone who disagrees with Mr. Monica Helms.” I’m sorry you feel the need to attack anyone who is not willing to join your lockstep march, but hey, you might consider reading my article on “Gender Fascists.” It’s specifically about you, and your ilk.

  148. Ah, Mr. Helms, of course I read that bit of drivel…what do you think inspired me to refer to you as “gender fascists.” And thanks for letting me know where you buy your sheets. But I have no use for such. As I have said, I am not part of your little boy’s club.

    And you really should get a dictionary. If you look up the word “bigot” you will discover that it does not mean “someone who disagrees with Mr. Monica Helms.” I’m sorry you feel the need to attack anyone who is not willing to join your lockstep march, but hey, you might consider reading my article on “Gender Fascists.” It’s specifically about you, and your ilk.

  149. Monica Helms says:

    Jennifer, Sears here in Georgia is having a sale on white sheets. They already have the eye holes cut into them. You can also order them in pink.

  150. Monica Helms says:

    Jennifer, Sears here in Georgia is having a sale on white sheets. They already have the eye holes cut into them. You can also order them in pink.

  151. Monica Helms says:

    Jennifer, Sears here in Georgia is having a sale on white sheets. They already have the eye holes cut into them. You can also order them in pink.

  152. You know, Stellewriter, the main reason some are viewed as “street trash” is because people like Mr. Helms keep running around trying to tell everyone that women can have penises. That, and well, there are some who really do act like street trash. But you know, it’s funny…I have never had that experience. Then again, I don’t seek attention, I am not out, loud, and proud, as they say, and I just live a quiet life as a woman.

    No, as long as the deconstructionists insist on trying to force their silliness on society, and worse, on those of us who don’t agree, we will be viewed negatively.

  153. You know, Stellewriter, the main reason some are viewed as “street trash” is because people like Mr. Helms keep running around trying to tell everyone that women can have penises. That, and well, there are some who really do act like street trash. But you know, it’s funny…I have never had that experience. Then again, I don’t seek attention, I am not out, loud, and proud, as they say, and I just live a quiet life as a woman.

    No, as long as the deconstructionists insist on trying to force their silliness on society, and worse, on those of us who don’t agree, we will be viewed negatively.

  154. Val says:

    > I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?”

    You are free to be a boring moron in your own words. Don’t misappropriate mine.

  155. Val says:

    > I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?”

    You are free to be a boring moron in your own words. Don’t misappropriate mine.

  156. Val says:

    > I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?”

    You are free to be a boring moron in your own words. Don’t misappropriate mine.

  157. Val says:

    > I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?”

    You are free to be a boring moron in your own words. Don’t misappropriate mine.

  158. Monica Helms says:

    I guess you didn’t read my article, “Gender Fundamentalists.” It’s recommended reading for HBS bigots. It’s posted here on Transadvocate. I’m betting you’ll see yourself in every word.

  159. Monica Helms says:

    I guess you didn’t read my article, “Gender Fundamentalists.” It’s recommended reading for HBS bigots. It’s posted here on Transadvocate. I’m betting you’ll see yourself in every word.

  160. I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?” Again, Iran is a nasty place, but they are at least enlightened on one small point.

    Now, again, I think Iran is wrong to execute gay men, to beat lesbians, and I think those things should be spoken out against. But at least give them credit for being enlightened on one point. Of course, I realize this is what Mr. Helms and Mr. Abernathy really fear. What IF people realize that people with HBS/transsexuals are different from “transgender people?” What if they realize that there is a significant difference between men playing dress-up and calling themselves women, and people who are born with a body and a brain that are at odds? What if they realize that they don’t have to have the transgender paradigm shoved down their throats, but could accept a more reasonable compromise? Oh, the horror!

  161. I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?” Again, Iran is a nasty place, but they are at least enlightened on one small point.

    Now, again, I think Iran is wrong to execute gay men, to beat lesbians, and I think those things should be spoken out against. But at least give them credit for being enlightened on one point. Of course, I realize this is what Mr. Helms and Mr. Abernathy really fear. What IF people realize that people with HBS/transsexuals are different from “transgender people?” What if they realize that there is a significant difference between men playing dress-up and calling themselves women, and people who are born with a body and a brain that are at odds? What if they realize that they don’t have to have the transgender paradigm shoved down their throats, but could accept a more reasonable compromise? Oh, the horror!

  162. I think what Val is trying to say is,”How dare Leigh expose us for what we really are?” Again, Iran is a nasty place, but they are at least enlightened on one small point.

    Now, again, I think Iran is wrong to execute gay men, to beat lesbians, and I think those things should be spoken out against. But at least give them credit for being enlightened on one point. Of course, I realize this is what Mr. Helms and Mr. Abernathy really fear. What IF people realize that people with HBS/transsexuals are different from “transgender people?” What if they realize that there is a significant difference between men playing dress-up and calling themselves women, and people who are born with a body and a brain that are at odds? What if they realize that they don’t have to have the transgender paradigm shoved down their throats, but could accept a more reasonable compromise? Oh, the horror!

  163. No Marti, we don’t play with you, we just give you the rope you need to hang yourselves.

  164. No Marti, we don’t play with you, we just give you the rope you need to hang yourselves.

  165. No Marti, we don’t play with you, we just give you the rope you need to hang yourselves.

  166. Felix, did you even bother reading what I said? I raised some of the same issues you did. And my remarks were not really aimed at you, but at Mr. Helms, who is just beside himself over the fact that Iran actually recognizes a truth he wishes to deny. Iran is a rather nasty place, with one small bit of hope. And yes, gay men have made the mistake of claiming to be transsexual to escape execution. And they have faced that which terrifies Mr. Helms so terribly much…the loss of their manhood.

  167. Felix, did you even bother reading what I said? I raised some of the same issues you did. And my remarks were not really aimed at you, but at Mr. Helms, who is just beside himself over the fact that Iran actually recognizes a truth he wishes to deny. Iran is a rather nasty place, with one small bit of hope. And yes, gay men have made the mistake of claiming to be transsexual to escape execution. And they have faced that which terrifies Mr. Helms so terribly much…the loss of their manhood.

  168. Well, once again, Mr. Helms shows his true colors. First off, he makes a response that is typically male…i.e. all bluster. Second, well does anyone really question the fact that like most men, his ego is very important to him? I mean, he has made it clear…they will take his, uh, ego, when they pry it from his cold dead fingers.

  169. Well, once again, Mr. Helms shows his true colors. First off, he makes a response that is typically male…i.e. all bluster. Second, well does anyone really question the fact that like most men, his ego is very important to him? I mean, he has made it clear…they will take his, uh, ego, when they pry it from his cold dead fingers.

  170. Stellewriter says:

    As I remember the face of the girl in the picture on the wall; her face had that desperate look, the one in which no answer could be found. I have seen it since, and once had a similar look. In the last 2 years four girls I knew, looked in the mirror and could not live one more day knowing the look staring back at them. My memories are very strong, and very much have become a part of me. My transitioned life is in part a life lived in memory and part in memorial to those who never had a chance. Change brings change…….

  171. Stellewriter says:

    As I remember the face of the girl in the picture on the wall; her face had that desperate look, the one in which no answer could be found. I have seen it since, and once had a similar look. In the last 2 years four girls I knew, looked in the mirror and could not live one more day knowing the look staring back at them. My memories are very strong, and very much have become a part of me. My transitioned life is in part a life lived in memory and part in memorial to those who never had a chance. Change brings change…….

  172. Monica Helms says:

    No wrestling. Just offering Liegh a chance to be with one of her fantasy girls. Consider it a form of education. I’m sure Marti could educate her just as easily, but I offered first.

    Class is in session.

    • Well, once again, Mr. Helms shows his true colors. First off, he makes a response that is typically male…i.e. all bluster. Second, well does anyone really question the fact that like most men, his ego is very important to him? I mean, he has made it clear…they will take his, uh, ego, when they pry it from his cold dead fingers.

  173. Monica Helms says:

    No wrestling. Just offering Liegh a chance to be with one of her fantasy girls. Consider it a form of education. I’m sure Marti could educate her just as easily, but I offered first.

    Class is in session.

  174. Val says:

    Strong memories, Stellewriter, and a strong post.

    Thank you.

  175. Val says:

    Strong memories, Stellewriter, and a strong post.

    Thank you.

  176. Stellewriter says:

    5 days this cat squabble has been going! Gads!

    I can remember many years ago sitting in a bar, in another life on the other side of the world, and watching guys toss money onto the floor while the bar flies fought tearing out each others hair; all over penny’s and loose change. The guys were soldiers and always hung out together. Although I was never included in their little club, I knew them and never saw them with women, or pandering for sex with them. At the time I did not even suspect that they may have been gay. Yet, looking back I see very clearly the elitist attitude and how they would demean women. In the compound they had their photos of the latest body builders and champions of flesh. They also had a few photos of chicks, one of special interest; she was standing a wall urinal between two men and shooting a stream from under that front of her skirt. They would always laugh and joke about her and make snide comments about her. I had never met here, but she was either a local civilian tranny, or another GI (not sure whose army) that was out seeking relief. Two things that I remember…. Her face, and the pain she was showing; pretty, but torn inside. And the look on the guys faces at times as they would joke with each other about one of the “muscle men” and then turn to disgust as they walked past the tranny’s picture. At the time I did not understand, as I was inside of my own painful incongruity.

    It was not until I saw the face of Congressman Barney Frank that the memory came back to me; I remembered the snide mocking laughter and twisted smiles. I could hear the coins hitting the floor, the girls pounding each other, covered in blood and sweat, grabbing for al of the few cents they could get. It was sick, and so was everything at that time. Yet, there was Barney, as so many of late, promoting the gay agenda, and laughing at those who need protection the most. No mistake, it is the same game; it is the same game today as it was in 30’s Germany cabaret, the 60’s in a dump bar on the other side of the world, and here.

    Several comments preceding I was questioned as to my coherency and congruency and that I difficult to understand. Let me make it simple…..

    We are viewed as street rash, or less, because of the media, and the same militant gay ass holes who hate us. The media is driven and moderated by that mentality; it is embedded with a militant gay culture. The Transgender are seen as trash, smelly trash that is an affront to the elitist gay agenda. And what is portrayed in the comments and infighting in this Trans-Advocate stream of snipes, that which is being taken at each other is no less, no less, the same brawling seen on the bar room floor those many years ago. And I suspect that the same guys are sitting in their executive offices reading this site and have the same snide smirk as I remember. The same snide look Barney Frank has towards us. The same snide words and perspective HRC and Joe Solmonese has towards us, and the whole of the militant gay community. (I did not say all gays, as many, themselves are treated the same way by the elitist thugs.)

    So as the activity, and the wrestling continues here, getting bloodied and smeared in each others sweat and mottled hair, out on the streets another sister is going to be stabbed, beaten, fired, and rejected…………………..

  177. Stellewriter says:

    5 days this cat squabble has been going! Gads!

    I can remember many years ago sitting in a bar, in another life on the other side of the world, and watching guys toss money onto the floor while the bar flies fought tearing out each others hair; all over penny’s and loose change. The guys were soldiers and always hung out together. Although I was never included in their little club, I knew them and never saw them with women, or pandering for sex with them. At the time I did not even suspect that they may have been gay. Yet, looking back I see very clearly the elitist attitude and how they would demean women. In the compound they had their photos of the latest body builders and champions of flesh. They also had a few photos of chicks, one of special interest; she was standing a wall urinal between two men and shooting a stream from under that front of her skirt. They would always laugh and joke about her and make snide comments about her. I had never met here, but she was either a local civilian tranny, or another GI (not sure whose army) that was out seeking relief. Two things that I remember…. Her face, and the pain she was showing; pretty, but torn inside. And the look on the guys faces at times as they would joke with each other about one of the “muscle men” and then turn to disgust as they walked past the tranny’s picture. At the time I did not understand, as I was inside of my own painful incongruity.

    It was not until I saw the face of Congressman Barney Frank that the memory came back to me; I remembered the snide mocking laughter and twisted smiles. I could hear the coins hitting the floor, the girls pounding each other, covered in blood and sweat, grabbing for al of the few cents they could get. It was sick, and so was everything at that time. Yet, there was Barney, as so many of late, promoting the gay agenda, and laughing at those who need protection the most. No mistake, it is the same game; it is the same game today as it was in 30’s Germany cabaret, the 60’s in a dump bar on the other side of the world, and here.

    Several comments preceding I was questioned as to my coherency and congruency and that I difficult to understand. Let me make it simple…..

    We are viewed as street rash, or less, because of the media, and the same militant gay ass holes who hate us. The media is driven and moderated by that mentality; it is embedded with a militant gay culture. The Transgender are seen as trash, smelly trash that is an affront to the elitist gay agenda. And what is portrayed in the comments and infighting in this Trans-Advocate stream of snipes, that which is being taken at each other is no less, no less, the same brawling seen on the bar room floor those many years ago. And I suspect that the same guys are sitting in their executive offices reading this site and have the same snide smirk as I remember. The same snide look Barney Frank has towards us. The same snide words and perspective HRC and Joe Solmonese has towards us, and the whole of the militant gay community. (I did not say all gays, as many, themselves are treated the same way by the elitist thugs.)

    So as the activity, and the wrestling continues here, getting bloodied and smeared in each others sweat and mottled hair, out on the streets another sister is going to be stabbed, beaten, fired, and rejected…………………..

    • Marti Abernathey says:

      I just don’t understand what the reason for coming here other than a pathetic endless argument. And a weak argument at that. The structure of Iran’s transsexual surgery is nothing short of what the Gendercator implies.
      The fact that Leigh supports that type of thinking proves how perverse her outlook is. There is no debate with someone of that mindset.

      • Monica Helms says:

        Where in the hell did you pull that crap out of this article?

        Keep it up. You are making me look like genius with every word you type. I said that HBS/WTB people are hateful and you keep proving me right. I love it! You are so perfect for my ego, and you cannot control yourself, just like I said in my article. Beautiful! You’re such a sweetheart! I love you.

  178. Monica Helms says:

    “Coy?” Me? Naaahh.

    Any “chick” can have a “dick.” Lesbians do it all the time. The wonderful world of toys. I’m betting Leigh has used them.

  179. Monica Helms says:

    “Coy?” Me? Naaahh.

    Any “chick” can have a “dick.” Lesbians do it all the time. The wonderful world of toys. I’m betting Leigh has used them.

  180. Felix says:

    “Hee, hee, hee”? Not getting all coy on us are you, Monica? 😉
    Hey, can I be a “chick with a dick”, too, Leigh? I kind of fit your criteria. 😀

  181. Felix says:

    “Hee, hee, hee”? Not getting all coy on us are you, Monica? 😉
    Hey, can I be a “chick with a dick”, too, Leigh? I kind of fit your criteria. 😀

  182. Monica Helms says:

    If Leigh is attracted to women like Marti and I, then maybe she should come and visit us. I live by myself, so . . .

    I’ll treat you so well that you will never go back to . . . back to . . . well, I guess you can’t “go back” if you’ve “never been.” (hee, hee, hee.)

  183. Monica Helms says:

    If Leigh is attracted to women like Marti and I, then maybe she should come and visit us. I live by myself, so . . .

    I’ll treat you so well that you will never go back to . . . back to . . . well, I guess you can’t “go back” if you’ve “never been.” (hee, hee, hee.)

  184. Monica Helms says:

    If Leigh is attracted to women like Marti and I, then maybe she should come and visit us. I live by myself, so . . .

    I’ll treat you so well that you will never go back to . . . back to . . . well, I guess you can’t “go back” if you’ve “never been.” (hee, hee, hee.)

  185. Val says:

    This thread might have taken a somewhat different turn had not Leigh insisted on wrenching it into the very narrow gauge of her own one-track mind with the very first – and typically inane – comment.

    The blog would appear to be hostage to the whims of children.

  186. Val says:

    This thread might have taken a somewhat different turn had not Leigh insisted on wrenching it into the very narrow gauge of her own one-track mind with the very first – and typically inane – comment.

    The blog would appear to be hostage to the whims of children.

  187. Marti Abernathey says:

    hmmm .. I was thinking chicks with dicks 😉

    Funny thing is, if we’re “chicks with dicks”, you’re chasing us. You make claims on other websites that you’ll not be wasting your time here, but you can’t wait to come here to play with us.

  188. Marti Abernathey says:

    hmmm .. I was thinking chicks with dicks 😉

    Funny thing is, if we’re “chicks with dicks”, you’re chasing us. You make claims on other websites that you’ll not be wasting your time here, but you can’t wait to come here to play with us.

  189. Monica Helms says:

    And Leigh, like Jennifer, makes my words ring true. HBS people are constantly showing their hate for others by using terms like what she just said. Thank you verifying my everything I said. I am such a perfect writer, thanks to this bigots.

  190. Monica Helms says:

    And Leigh, like Jennifer, makes my words ring true. HBS people are constantly showing their hate for others by using terms like what she just said. Thank you verifying my everything I said. I am such a perfect writer, thanks to this bigots.

  191. leigh says:

    “Well, the responses here just go to show why I refer to those like Monica Helms and Marti Abernathy as “gender fascists.””

    hmmm .. I was thinking chicks with dicks 😉

  192. leigh says:

    “Well, the responses here just go to show why I refer to those like Monica Helms and Marti Abernathy as “gender fascists.””

    hmmm .. I was thinking chicks with dicks 😉

  193. Felix says:

    Just Jennifer – maybe I fall into your category of “gender fascist”? I have no idea. If so, I would like to explain that I am NOT “upset that Iran recognises that transsexuals are not gay” – where did you get that bizarre idea? What does distress me is that the Iranian government executes gay men and beats gay women and I feel that many of the latter people will be pushed into the position of claiming transsexuality out of fear. God knows how gay transpeople live; I presume lesbian transwomen stay male in order to remain safely with female partners. That’s a pretty damn distressing notion, in my opinion.

  194. Felix says:

    Just Jennifer – maybe I fall into your category of “gender fascist”? I have no idea. If so, I would like to explain that I am NOT “upset that Iran recognises that transsexuals are not gay” – where did you get that bizarre idea? What does distress me is that the Iranian government executes gay men and beats gay women and I feel that many of the latter people will be pushed into the position of claiming transsexuality out of fear. God knows how gay transpeople live; I presume lesbian transwomen stay male in order to remain safely with female partners. That’s a pretty damn distressing notion, in my opinion.

  195. Monica Helms says:

    Thank you Jennifer. I have to compliment you for showing people that everything I said in the article, “Gender Fundamentalists” is true when it comes to people like yourself. You cannot help but make me look like a genius with you comments. Keep it up. You boost my ego with every word you type. You’re a sweetheart.

  196. Monica Helms says:

    Thank you Jennifer. I have to compliment you for showing people that everything I said in the article, “Gender Fundamentalists” is true when it comes to people like yourself. You cannot help but make me look like a genius with you comments. Keep it up. You boost my ego with every word you type. You’re a sweetheart.

  197. ROTFL! Well, the responses here just go to show why I refer to those like Monica Helms and Marti Abernathy as “gender fascists.” As has been observed elsewhere, they seem to be as upset that Iran recognizes that transsexuals are not gay, as anything else. Yes, Iran is a horrible place. I strongly oppose their policies towards homosexuals, but it is clear, they do see transsexuals as simply not the same thing as homosexuals. They do the one thing the gender fascists can’t stand…they recognize transsexuals as being legitimate.

    Now, this policy in Iran has led to the problem of gay men claiming to be transsexual in order to avoid execution. And in some cases, they have through with surgery, which they regret. On no! That’s even worse. Suddenly we discover that gender is not something one can choose on a whim. It appears to be more than “just a social construct.” I mean, why shouldn’t they be perfectly happy as women, having sex with men? After all, genitals don’t matter. They can just be men with vaginas, just like all the supposed women with penises that try to tell us all how we can, and cannot think.

    Really Monica, you are just too funny for words.

  198. ROTFL! Well, the responses here just go to show why I refer to those like Monica Helms and Marti Abernathy as “gender fascists.” As has been observed elsewhere, they seem to be as upset that Iran recognizes that transsexuals are not gay, as anything else. Yes, Iran is a horrible place. I strongly oppose their policies towards homosexuals, but it is clear, they do see transsexuals as simply not the same thing as homosexuals. They do the one thing the gender fascists can’t stand…they recognize transsexuals as being legitimate.

    Now, this policy in Iran has led to the problem of gay men claiming to be transsexual in order to avoid execution. And in some cases, they have through with surgery, which they regret. On no! That’s even worse. Suddenly we discover that gender is not something one can choose on a whim. It appears to be more than “just a social construct.” I mean, why shouldn’t they be perfectly happy as women, having sex with men? After all, genitals don’t matter. They can just be men with vaginas, just like all the supposed women with penises that try to tell us all how we can, and cannot think.

    Really Monica, you are just too funny for words.

  199. Felix says:

    Yes, of course it is only “some” but I doubt that there is such a thing as real choice when men are executed for homosexual acts.
    http://www.homanla.org/ <<This site looks interesting but I’ve not had time to go through it yet. I’m not implying that gay males and transsexual women are the same, simply challenging the assertion by Leigh that Iranians differentiate between transgender as a “gay construct” and (presumably) genuine transsexuals. They don’t. They deny homosexuality exists but there is proof that they execute people for practising it. “Transgender” is unknown as a concept. If a gay person meets the criteria for gender reassignment they can be “cured” by SRS and the Iranian government can congratulate itself on; a) being compassionate to transsexual people and b) having no homosexual deviants around flouting God’s law.

  200. Felix says:

    Yes, of course it is only “some” but I doubt that there is such a thing as real choice when men are executed for homosexual acts.
    http://www.homanla.org/ <<This site looks interesting but I’ve not had time to go through it yet. I’m not implying that gay males and transsexual women are the same, simply challenging the assertion by Leigh that Iranians differentiate between transgender as a “gay construct” and (presumably) genuine transsexuals. They don’t. They deny homosexuality exists but there is proof that they execute people for practising it. “Transgender” is unknown as a concept. If a gay person meets the criteria for gender reassignment they can be “cured” by SRS and the Iranian government can congratulate itself on; a) being compassionate to transsexual people and b) having no homosexual deviants around flouting God’s law.

  201. Bonnie says:

    Felix,I read that article and what was stated.
    Maryam Khatoon Molkara, leader of the country’s main transsexual organisation, said some of those undergoing operations were gay rather than out-and-out transsexuals. Keyword here is “SOME”.

    Now that comes as no surprise as that applies to Thailand as well (gay people having srs surgery), but is a small number, or you could say “Some”. but it is by the persons choice.

  202. Bonnie says:

    Felix,I read that article and what was stated.
    Maryam Khatoon Molkara, leader of the country’s main transsexual organisation, said some of those undergoing operations were gay rather than out-and-out transsexuals. Keyword here is “SOME”.

    Now that comes as no surprise as that applies to Thailand as well (gay people having srs surgery), but is a small number, or you could say “Some”. but it is by the persons choice.

  203. Felix says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2176958,00.html

    The Guardian, on the other hand, is a reliable source of information. 🙂

  204. Felix says:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2176958,00.html

    The Guardian, on the other hand, is a reliable source of information. 🙂

  205. Bonnie says:

    wolfgang you are being absurd in your statement. It is only your opinion based on guessing as to what the facts are.
    You are not in Iran to really know what is going on.
    Give you a hot tip, don`t believe everything you see in newspapers.

  206. Bonnie says:

    wolfgang you are being absurd in your statement. It is only your opinion based on guessing as to what the facts are.
    You are not in Iran to really know what is going on.
    Give you a hot tip, don`t believe everything you see in newspapers.

  207. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “even the Iranian’s can tell the difference !!”

    On the contrary, Leigh, what’s actually happening in Iran is that gays are being forced to undergo sex reassignment–or be executed. I highly suspect that the vast majority of sex changes there are on people who are *not* transsexuals.

  208. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “even the Iranian’s can tell the difference !!”

    On the contrary, Leigh, what’s actually happening in Iran is that gays are being forced to undergo sex reassignment–or be executed. I highly suspect that the vast majority of sex changes there are on people who are *not* transsexuals.

  209. Val says:

    > There are other points to my statements, which you have overlooked.

    I’m sorry. I honestly don’t mean to be overlooking anything. I’m just having a language problem here… the way you order your thoughts is difficult for me to organize and consider.

    Namaste.

  210. Val says:

    > There are other points to my statements, which you have overlooked.

    I’m sorry. I honestly don’t mean to be overlooking anything. I’m just having a language problem here… the way you order your thoughts is difficult for me to organize and consider.

    Namaste.

  211. Monica Helms says:

    Call me, Stelle, after 5:30

  212. Monica Helms says:

    Call me, Stelle, after 5:30

  213. Stellewriter says:

    I did ask a question, but you do not have to answer it.

    The point is siple, I am different. You and I are not the same, and perhaps do not share the same views or desires. Further, we may in fact find that both of us conflict in what we deem as our best well being and welfare. Yet, under the blanket we may have similar needs and require mutual assistance in realizing our individual aspirations. So, my heart says that I am Transgender, since that is the accepted term for all who are not explicitly all male, or female. Yet, I am different, and do not necessarily share in many of the differentiations which are entertained by the Transgender community at large. Some things are resolute, however, and equality is one of the things I hold as nonnegotiable. Others may not be so inclined and be focused on the hooray for me, piss on you position, as I previously stated. (HRC, Joe Solmonese, and Barney Frank as example.)

    There are other points to my statements, which you have overlooked. That is okay also, as in this frame it is likely moot and would not be of value.

    I will ask another question, what value is there in associating with the transgender at large?

    It is a fine line for me, and I am thinking to do what so many others have, and step off into another world and leave those who cannot get the point to suffer what they may. The choice is not mine, but that of the Transgender community at large. No question in my mind that the term Transsexual, Transitioned, and Post-op all are held in contempt with often deriding comments and slams by the Transgender themselves. No care for what others may say. Sometimes it is like being a leper to a leper in a leper’s colony. And worse it seems to work both ways – “T” against “T”! I have a couple of Trans friends who have successfully moved past this leper state and live entirely normal lives. I too may be able to find such a haven. The only problem is that I will forever remember those who are denied such opportunity. And that hurts; it hurts a lot! I cry often over some wonderful people, living and dead who have suffered terribly. What a dichotomy, to care, and know that most who I care for, don’t care, or at least act like they don’t.

    And if we cannot show care for each other, then who else could care?

  214. Stellewriter says:

    I did ask a question, but you do not have to answer it.

    The point is siple, I am different. You and I are not the same, and perhaps do not share the same views or desires. Further, we may in fact find that both of us conflict in what we deem as our best well being and welfare. Yet, under the blanket we may have similar needs and require mutual assistance in realizing our individual aspirations. So, my heart says that I am Transgender, since that is the accepted term for all who are not explicitly all male, or female. Yet, I am different, and do not necessarily share in many of the differentiations which are entertained by the Transgender community at large. Some things are resolute, however, and equality is one of the things I hold as nonnegotiable. Others may not be so inclined and be focused on the hooray for me, piss on you position, as I previously stated. (HRC, Joe Solmonese, and Barney Frank as example.)

    There are other points to my statements, which you have overlooked. That is okay also, as in this frame it is likely moot and would not be of value.

    I will ask another question, what value is there in associating with the transgender at large?

    It is a fine line for me, and I am thinking to do what so many others have, and step off into another world and leave those who cannot get the point to suffer what they may. The choice is not mine, but that of the Transgender community at large. No question in my mind that the term Transsexual, Transitioned, and Post-op all are held in contempt with often deriding comments and slams by the Transgender themselves. No care for what others may say. Sometimes it is like being a leper to a leper in a leper’s colony. And worse it seems to work both ways – “T” against “T”! I have a couple of Trans friends who have successfully moved past this leper state and live entirely normal lives. I too may be able to find such a haven. The only problem is that I will forever remember those who are denied such opportunity. And that hurts; it hurts a lot! I cry often over some wonderful people, living and dead who have suffered terribly. What a dichotomy, to care, and know that most who I care for, don’t care, or at least act like they don’t.

    And if we cannot show care for each other, then who else could care?

  215. Monica Helms says:

    I know Stelle personally. Maybe we need to sit down and do some further discussions. I also am seeing incongruent statements. Sorry, Stelle.

  216. Monica Helms says:

    I know Stelle personally. Maybe we need to sit down and do some further discussions. I also am seeing incongruent statements. Sorry, Stelle.

  217. Val says:

    I’m sorry, Stellewriter, but I get mixed messages from your entries.

    Here, you seem to say that you are willing to identify as transgender:

    “We, the Transgender are seen as Lepers.”

    Yet here, you seem to be putting distance between yourself and the transgender community:

    “I have to ask myself, what do I have in common witht eh Transgender community?”

    And again here, as in your previous post, you seem to inferring that, since “transgender” encompasses a variety of identities that you want to have nothing to do with, you want nothing to do with it:

    “I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.”

    So I still don’t get it. I don’t mean to be deliberately obtuse… I just find your writing confusing.

  218. Val says:

    I’m sorry, Stellewriter, but I get mixed messages from your entries.

    Here, you seem to say that you are willing to identify as transgender:

    “We, the Transgender are seen as Lepers.”

    Yet here, you seem to be putting distance between yourself and the transgender community:

    “I have to ask myself, what do I have in common witht eh Transgender community?”

    And again here, as in your previous post, you seem to inferring that, since “transgender” encompasses a variety of identities that you want to have nothing to do with, you want nothing to do with it:

    “I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.”

    So I still don’t get it. I don’t mean to be deliberately obtuse… I just find your writing confusing.

  219. Stellewriter says:

    Val,

    I do not know you, nor what you are, or what you may desire to be seen as, or how you would wish to be accepted. No idea at all?

    Doesn’t really matter does it? Or does it? Really?

    Monday, I am meeting for a high level interview and hopefully a job. Now if the Director picks up on my being a transsexual, what do you suppose might run through his mind? If he is a straight Hetro-family man, he may think I am a deviant and perhaps gay, or something worse. If he is gay, all of his alarm bells will go off, and he will see me as a controversial and argumentative problem that he finds repulsive. (by examples given in most Trans-bog rhetoric) Should he be diversity savvy and compassionate towards the issues of Transsexuality and the Intersex, what will be his thoughts towards what his clients may think? And in reflection to what I have seen here in Transadvocate and other T’blog, the banter and mal-respect is appalling. It is something that the media, gay elite, and conservative following use against us. You may not understand that possibility, but I have sat in senate delegate meetings and among political goons to not only hear their plans, but was privy to whom they were in league with.

    We, the Transgender are seen as Lepers. And in many respects, we are!

    I have to ask myself, what do I have in common witht eh Transgender community? I am a transitioned, Transsexual, who has paid a terrible price to survive. What have others placed on the line to survive? My situation does not place me as something superior, but it also is not cause to suffer the low life stupidity and association with some who may exhibit the factors that the employer I am meeting may hold as repugnant. (my point: I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior. I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.)

    You may not understand, nor would you likely care as to the wellbeing of someone else? I do not know? I have seen how you and so many others slap each other around. I try not to express things which are directed to an individual, except in cases where they use office, position, or authority to hurt others. (HRC, Joe Solmonese, and Barney Frank as example.) Never mind!

    I will ask this though, could I invite you to this meeting on Monday, where I either find next months rent, or land on the street? Would your presence be an asset, or kill my chances? I do not know, as I have never seen you, nor met you, or know anything other of you than what I see here. (Some here know of me, and they may think I am, well… ?? what ever?? Yet, they may not have taken time to know me personally or my grief and difficulties. For me everyday is a death struggle from start to finish.) I ask again, you, and every other Transgender person, are you, them, and all, a credit or decrement to those around you?

    It a question, ….do you or anyone else here hold an answer? And if you do, are you willing to place your life on the line to uphold it? Well…….

  220. Stellewriter says:

    Val,

    I do not know you, nor what you are, or what you may desire to be seen as, or how you would wish to be accepted. No idea at all?

    Doesn’t really matter does it? Or does it? Really?

    Monday, I am meeting for a high level interview and hopefully a job. Now if the Director picks up on my being a transsexual, what do you suppose might run through his mind? If he is a straight Hetro-family man, he may think I am a deviant and perhaps gay, or something worse. If he is gay, all of his alarm bells will go off, and he will see me as a controversial and argumentative problem that he finds repulsive. (by examples given in most Trans-bog rhetoric) Should he be diversity savvy and compassionate towards the issues of Transsexuality and the Intersex, what will be his thoughts towards what his clients may think? And in reflection to what I have seen here in Transadvocate and other T’blog, the banter and mal-respect is appalling. It is something that the media, gay elite, and conservative following use against us. You may not understand that possibility, but I have sat in senate delegate meetings and among political goons to not only hear their plans, but was privy to whom they were in league with.

    We, the Transgender are seen as Lepers. And in many respects, we are!

    I have to ask myself, what do I have in common witht eh Transgender community? I am a transitioned, Transsexual, who has paid a terrible price to survive. What have others placed on the line to survive? My situation does not place me as something superior, but it also is not cause to suffer the low life stupidity and association with some who may exhibit the factors that the employer I am meeting may hold as repugnant. (my point: I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior. I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.)

    You may not understand, nor would you likely care as to the wellbeing of someone else? I do not know? I have seen how you and so many others slap each other around. I try not to express things which are directed to an individual, except in cases where they use office, position, or authority to hurt others. (HRC, Joe Solmonese, and Barney Frank as example.) Never mind!

    I will ask this though, could I invite you to this meeting on Monday, where I either find next months rent, or land on the street? Would your presence be an asset, or kill my chances? I do not know, as I have never seen you, nor met you, or know anything other of you than what I see here. (Some here know of me, and they may think I am, well… ?? what ever?? Yet, they may not have taken time to know me personally or my grief and difficulties. For me everyday is a death struggle from start to finish.) I ask again, you, and every other Transgender person, are you, them, and all, a credit or decrement to those around you?

    It a question, ….do you or anyone else here hold an answer? And if you do, are you willing to place your life on the line to uphold it? Well…….

  221. Val says:

    > Why do Transsexuals try to fade into the woodwork and not be identified as Transgender?

    It seems to me that you answer your own question:

    > I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.

    So, not for the first time, I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying, or who you believe is marginalizing or demeaning whom.

  222. Val says:

    > Why do Transsexuals try to fade into the woodwork and not be identified as Transgender?

    It seems to me that you answer your own question:

    > I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior.

    So, not for the first time, I’m not entirely sure what you’re saying, or who you believe is marginalizing or demeaning whom.

  223. Stellewriter says:

    While I leave others to their devices, and do not in general indict others for who they are, or what they may entertain, I am always astounded as to how others seem to have the right to reflect on the validity of others. The militant gay groups slam and bash freely the Transgender community, the ignorant and confused conservatives do the same, but again I am astounded at how the Transgender slam and bash at each other. There seems to be no end to it. I am a Transsexual, simply trying to find my way to some sense of normality, life, and survival. Although I can appreciate the concept of inclusion of all of the varied manifestations as a common group, it is hardly such. Not at all, and every day I see and hear the same in fighting and disregard for each other that is so prevalent by the words of those outside of the trans-community. We can complain about all of the dehumanizing rhetoric that the media (a gay driven industry) projects upon us, yet, what about us? We not only allow others to dehumanize us, we do it to ourselves and each other. What the F—? What the F—?

    Why do Transsexuals try to fade into the woodwork and not be identified as Transgender? Why do most gays avoid personal socialization with the Transgender? Pardon me, but ….. What the F—?

    As a Transitioned individual, (meaning I am my own answer), I am growing very much tired of the behavior and selfish perspectives played out in the public arena. I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior. I am me, and my own answer! I am my own answer and not open to anyone’s dehumanizing, smearing, bashing, or otherwise retarded and demeaning comments. I not only demand that right, I made a promise some years ago of life, blood, and resolve, even death that I would not accept marginalization by anyone ever again. If needs be, with blood on my hands, again fighting the fight I thought had been fought. No one, not even the Transgender community should think they have the right to berate and marginalize anyone, as do so many others. If we dehumanize each other, well,……. What the F—?

  224. Stellewriter says:

    While I leave others to their devices, and do not in general indict others for who they are, or what they may entertain, I am always astounded as to how others seem to have the right to reflect on the validity of others. The militant gay groups slam and bash freely the Transgender community, the ignorant and confused conservatives do the same, but again I am astounded at how the Transgender slam and bash at each other. There seems to be no end to it. I am a Transsexual, simply trying to find my way to some sense of normality, life, and survival. Although I can appreciate the concept of inclusion of all of the varied manifestations as a common group, it is hardly such. Not at all, and every day I see and hear the same in fighting and disregard for each other that is so prevalent by the words of those outside of the trans-community. We can complain about all of the dehumanizing rhetoric that the media (a gay driven industry) projects upon us, yet, what about us? We not only allow others to dehumanize us, we do it to ourselves and each other. What the F—? What the F—?

    Why do Transsexuals try to fade into the woodwork and not be identified as Transgender? Why do most gays avoid personal socialization with the Transgender? Pardon me, but ….. What the F—?

    As a Transitioned individual, (meaning I am my own answer), I am growing very much tired of the behavior and selfish perspectives played out in the public arena. I do not want to be cast as gay, a crossdresser, gender queer, trans-Goth, or any other myriad of description or behavior. I am me, and my own answer! I am my own answer and not open to anyone’s dehumanizing, smearing, bashing, or otherwise retarded and demeaning comments. I not only demand that right, I made a promise some years ago of life, blood, and resolve, even death that I would not accept marginalization by anyone ever again. If needs be, with blood on my hands, again fighting the fight I thought had been fought. No one, not even the Transgender community should think they have the right to berate and marginalize anyone, as do so many others. If we dehumanize each other, well,……. What the F—?

  225. Val says:

    Disregarding the Post article as too sensationalistic to bother with, it seems to me that Iran’s position is an expression of pure – and well-documented – homophobia and genital essentialism. It is self-consistent, and nowhere do I find any reference to support Leigh’s irrelevant comment about the “transgender construct.”

    Considering with severity with which sex and gender roles are policed in Iran, it’s surprising to me that American essentialists would look to Iran as a model for their own arguments. Though it’s to be expected, I suppose… Iran’s apparently compassionate policies toward “true transsexuals” go hand in hand with the same contempt of anything less absolute that is part of the American essentialists’ own orthodoxy (an example of which is supplied in Marti’s quote from Leigh above).

    It ought to be no surprise, I suppose, that fundamentalists find common ground.

    Nevertheless, Felix’s concern is documented here:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2177277,00.html

    From which I quote:

    “Maryam Khatoon Molkara, leader of the country’s main transsexual organisation, said some of those undergoing operations were gay rather than out-and-out transsexuals. “In Iran, transsexuals are part of the homosexual family. Is it possible that a phenomenon exists in the world but not in Iran? Transsexuality is a real disaster. It’s a one-way street. But if somebody wants to study, have a future and live like others they should go through this surgery.”

  226. Val says:

    Disregarding the Post article as too sensationalistic to bother with, it seems to me that Iran’s position is an expression of pure – and well-documented – homophobia and genital essentialism. It is self-consistent, and nowhere do I find any reference to support Leigh’s irrelevant comment about the “transgender construct.”

    Considering with severity with which sex and gender roles are policed in Iran, it’s surprising to me that American essentialists would look to Iran as a model for their own arguments. Though it’s to be expected, I suppose… Iran’s apparently compassionate policies toward “true transsexuals” go hand in hand with the same contempt of anything less absolute that is part of the American essentialists’ own orthodoxy (an example of which is supplied in Marti’s quote from Leigh above).

    It ought to be no surprise, I suppose, that fundamentalists find common ground.

    Nevertheless, Felix’s concern is documented here:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2177277,00.html

    From which I quote:

    “Maryam Khatoon Molkara, leader of the country’s main transsexual organisation, said some of those undergoing operations were gay rather than out-and-out transsexuals. “In Iran, transsexuals are part of the homosexual family. Is it possible that a phenomenon exists in the world but not in Iran? Transsexuality is a real disaster. It’s a one-way street. But if somebody wants to study, have a future and live like others they should go through this surgery.”

  227. Felix says:

    The Iranian authorities insist that transsexual women ARE homosexual men until they transition. They claim that gay men, as we would understand them, do not exist in Iran, seeing the latter as a phenomenon of Western decadence. As people tend to do whatever they can to survive one may safely assume that not all of the people claiming to be transsexual are so, especially effeminate men who fear for their lives. Cultural factors have to be considered.

  228. Felix says:

    The Iranian authorities insist that transsexual women ARE homosexual men until they transition. They claim that gay men, as we would understand them, do not exist in Iran, seeing the latter as a phenomenon of Western decadence. As people tend to do whatever they can to survive one may safely assume that not all of the people claiming to be transsexual are so, especially effeminate men who fear for their lives. Cultural factors have to be considered.

  229. Susan says:

    Felix, I understand your point, but disagree with the implication when you say:

    In the eyes of the law they (post ops)have then become heterosexual men and women.

    In the “eyes of the law” or not, they probably are heterosexual, if one assumes the same gay:straight ratio in the gender change world as in that of the natal. To assert otherwise to is to say that post ops are nothing more than homosexual men who have gone to the extreme of GRS, is it not?

  230. Monica Helms says:

    I’m sure Sue and Leigh also get their kicks yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater, then try to tell the police they were just “expressing their opinion.” Sue pulled that crap on Bilerico by posting her hateful rhetoric in a string that had nothing to do with what we were discussing, then tried to justify it as expressing her opinion.

  231. Monica Helms says:

    I’m sure Sue and Leigh also get their kicks yelling “Fire” in a crowded theater, then try to tell the police they were just “expressing their opinion.” Sue pulled that crap on Bilerico by posting her hateful rhetoric in a string that had nothing to do with what we were discussing, then tried to justify it as expressing her opinion.

  232. Niss says:

    Beh every single article lately it seems is spammed with the same conflict between Sue/Leigh and others, its kind of ridiculous. Leigh and Sue you come across more and more as trolls.

  233. Niss says:

    Beh every single article lately it seems is spammed with the same conflict between Sue/Leigh and others, its kind of ridiculous. Leigh and Sue you come across more and more as trolls.

  234. Felix says:

    Leigh – Iran provides gender reassignment for transpeople BECAUSE it regards them as essentially HOMOSEXUAL UNTIL THEY TRANSITION. To be actively gay is illegal in Iran, so people who feel like the “opposite” sex and are sexually attracted to the “same” sex, are rushed through transition to avoid being punished for homosexuality. In the eyes of the law they have then become heterosexual men and women. Mind you, if a transperson then has a same-sex relationship, they are in just as much trouble as before – so women on here in love with women would be beaten, tortured, raped and imprisoned (unless they married a man and hid their lesbianism).
    “She-vil”, apart from being an appalling pun, implies YET AGAIN that all transsexual people are natal males who transition to female and are a bit nasty. Female-to-males are rarely on the media radar because a patriarchal society doesn’t like to admit it is so easy to create totally convincing men with a few syringefuls of hormones and a chest binder. Attractive men who understand women and, boy, does that really piss them off. 🙂

  235. Felix says:

    Leigh – Iran provides gender reassignment for transpeople BECAUSE it regards them as essentially HOMOSEXUAL UNTIL THEY TRANSITION. To be actively gay is illegal in Iran, so people who feel like the “opposite” sex and are sexually attracted to the “same” sex, are rushed through transition to avoid being punished for homosexuality. In the eyes of the law they have then become heterosexual men and women. Mind you, if a transperson then has a same-sex relationship, they are in just as much trouble as before – so women on here in love with women would be beaten, tortured, raped and imprisoned (unless they married a man and hid their lesbianism).
    “She-vil”, apart from being an appalling pun, implies YET AGAIN that all transsexual people are natal males who transition to female and are a bit nasty. Female-to-males are rarely on the media radar because a patriarchal society doesn’t like to admit it is so easy to create totally convincing men with a few syringefuls of hormones and a chest binder. Attractive men who understand women and, boy, does that really piss them off. 🙂

  236. Monica Helms says:

    Seems like Leigh has to go out of her way to prove every point I made in my article, “Gender Fundamentalists.” I couldn’t ask for a better person to show everybody I was right and I couldn’t have asked for a better ego booster. Keep it up, Leigh. You’re a doll.

  237. Monica Helms says:

    Seems like Leigh has to go out of her way to prove every point I made in my article, “Gender Fundamentalists.” I couldn’t ask for a better person to show everybody I was right and I couldn’t have asked for a better ego booster. Keep it up, Leigh. You’re a doll.

  238. leigh says:

    …and your right .. I think its time I left you alone. It surely is a waste of energy but the amuzement factor has been oodles of fun.

  239. leigh says:

    …and your right .. I think its time I left you alone. It surely is a waste of energy but the amuzement factor has been oodles of fun.

  240. Rory says:

    Back to the article… Marti, you said that you like the word “tranny”, so I’m not sure what your complaint about the headline is. Iran’s nickname is the Axis of Evil, so using “she-vil” instead is a play on words about the country of Iran. I don’t think that the implication is that trannies are evil.

    The sub-head seems to be an accurate summation of the situation in Iran. So other than being generally snarky (it is the NY Post, afterall), what’s the problem?

  241. Rory says:

    Back to the article… Marti, you said that you like the word “tranny”, so I’m not sure what your complaint about the headline is. Iran’s nickname is the Axis of Evil, so using “she-vil” instead is a play on words about the country of Iran. I don’t think that the implication is that trannies are evil.

    The sub-head seems to be an accurate summation of the situation in Iran. So other than being generally snarky (it is the NY Post, afterall), what’s the problem?

  242. Rory says:

    Back to the article… Marti, you said that you like the word “tranny”, so I’m not sure what your complaint about the headline is. Iran’s nickname is the Axis of Evil, so using “she-vil” instead is a play on words about the country of Iran. I don’t think that the implication is that trannies are evil.

    The sub-head seems to be an accurate summation of the situation in Iran. So other than being generally snarky (it is the NY Post, afterall), what’s the problem?

  243. leigh says:

    I didn’t say I supported it .. I merely pointed out that the story implies that while Iran does support and recognise transsexuals, they regard transgenders as homosexuals. If I am wrong in that then please tell me why your headline on this is

    “GLAAD:New York Post Headline Dehumanizes Transgender People” ???

  244. leigh says:

    I didn’t say I supported it .. I merely pointed out that the story implies that while Iran does support and recognise transsexuals, they regard transgenders as homosexuals. If I am wrong in that then please tell me why your headline on this is

    “GLAAD:New York Post Headline Dehumanizes Transgender People” ???

  245. Marti Abernathey says:

    I just don’t understand what the reason for coming here other than a pathetic endless argument. And a weak argument at that. The structure of Iran’s transsexual surgery is nothing short of what the Gendercator implies.
    The fact that Leigh supports that type of thinking proves how perverse her outlook is. There is no debate with someone of that mindset.

  246. Monica Helms says:

    Here, Leigh. Come to Monica. Roll over. Play dead. Play dead some more. Play dead again. Keep playing dead. That’s a good girl. HEY! Don’t pee on the carpet! Bad dog! That’s it. Lick yourself.

  247. Monica Helms says:

    Here, Leigh. Come to Monica. Roll over. Play dead. Play dead some more. Play dead again. Keep playing dead. That’s a good girl. HEY! Don’t pee on the carpet! Bad dog! That’s it. Lick yourself.

  248. Val says:

    > they are men that need an excuse to dress and present as women.

    I particularly like this quote because it’s exactly the kind of thing that Susan insists she does not engage in (inferential evidence to the contrary). It would appear that, in order to preserve at least the semblance of implausible deniability, Leigh has been designated the attack dog.

    Woof. Have a cookie.

  249. leigh says:

    OMG… you found me out !

  250. leigh says:

    OMG… you found me out !

  251. Marti Abernathey says:

    Leigh, you said:

    Yes susan and Sue .. we are beating ourselves to death over this for nothing. Those fucks are mental. The Juro show is nothing more than a trans-gay appreciation society. We will never change anyones mind because they can never be like us because they are men that need an excuse to dress and present as women.

    The funny thing is, you keep coming over to the “mental” people’s website and posting on EVERY thread. I too question why you do it, as you’ve gotten absolutely NO traction here. Val destroys your arguments EVERY SINGLE TIME, until you devolve into jokes. Seems you have an affection for men who present as women. I think that’s called a fetish, if I’m not mistaken.

  252. Marti Abernathey says:

    Leigh, you said:

    Yes susan and Sue .. we are beating ourselves to death over this for nothing. Those fucks are mental. The Juro show is nothing more than a trans-gay appreciation society. We will never change anyones mind because they can never be like us because they are men that need an excuse to dress and present as women.

    The funny thing is, you keep coming over to the “mental” people’s website and posting on EVERY thread. I too question why you do it, as you’ve gotten absolutely NO traction here. Val destroys your arguments EVERY SINGLE TIME, until you devolve into jokes. Seems you have an affection for men who present as women. I think that’s called a fetish, if I’m not mistaken.

  253. leigh says:

    “But while bearded morality police race around the nation condemning homosexuals to death and flogging women whose headscarves they deem too revealing, the fervently conservative Islamic republic is happy to pay for transsexuals to undergo sex-change operations.

    “[They] are not to blame,” Hassan Moussavi Chalak of Iran’s State Welfare Organization told Bloomberg News. “They have rights such as every other citizen.”

    So the government plans to spend $650,000 this year on the procedures. “

    Read the article .. New York Post

  254. leigh says:

    “But while bearded morality police race around the nation condemning homosexuals to death and flogging women whose headscarves they deem too revealing, the fervently conservative Islamic republic is happy to pay for transsexuals to undergo sex-change operations.

    “[They] are not to blame,” Hassan Moussavi Chalak of Iran’s State Welfare Organization told Bloomberg News. “They have rights such as every other citizen.”

    So the government plans to spend $650,000 this year on the procedures. “

    Read the article .. New York Post

  255. Monica Helms says:

    Where in the hell did you pull that crap out of this article?

    Keep it up. You are making me look like genius with every word you type. I said that HBS/WTB people are hateful and you keep proving me right. I love it! You are so perfect for my ego, and you cannot control yourself, just like I said in my article. Beautiful! You’re such a sweetheart! I love you.

  256. leigh says:

    Just outlines what Transsexuals have been saying .. transgender is considered a gay construct, even the Iranian’s can tell the difference !!.. gasp !!!

  257. leigh says:

    Just outlines what Transsexuals have been saying .. transgender is considered a gay construct, even the Iranian’s can tell the difference !!.. gasp !!!