I found a pretty intriguing comment over at Womens Spaces/The Margins concerning a post written by Harry Benjamin Syndrome apologist, Cathy Platine, at Pam’s House Blend.
That whole thread over at PHB consists of males scratching out turf over the female body, each laying claim to ownership.
While I live in this society as a woman, the reality is that I’m male bodied and a surgically constructed vagina will not change that.
Thoughts?
233 Comments, Comment or Ping
Stellewriter
You are correct in that no amount of surgery or shaping can make someone some other than what they are inside. Yes, one can shift their mind state to accommodate some gender issues, but even then, there are aspects which cannot be over ridden. Otherwise, I would have remained Bob, and found a way to be a happier person. Back to the question, who owns the territory of womanhood? Or Guy hood? Each individually make that determination I for myself! And you for yourself!
What ever The feminist movers may wish to probigate, they, nor the lesbian, Bi, or anyone can say they own exclusivity to womanhood. Anne Oakley was a lady, but to some very unlady like. Few knew her personal Life. In kind George Elliot, the author, lived a life that was outside of the percieved box called womanhood. Likewise, for the world of manhood, which I decided to leave and live as a woman. Note, I mistakenly said live as a woman, I meant as woman.
For you, well, it is a matter of what you desire to be and others to recognize. That leads to another question!
Q?: What kind of environment do we choose to inhabit? Does it support us or take from us? Most woman who work in the oil fields and out on the range are perceived as more man than woman. The first women fought to find recognition as women in the fire and police service. I can tell you though, that the first entries were treated like men, and adopted much of their qualities. Now, we see al flavors. And although Transsexuals are not fully protected, they can find acceptance and live fully as women, in almost any environment. Note! I did not say easily!
In admission to your original thoughts, yes, as times, like this week, I am bombarded with the post guy syndrome. I was doing some repair work on my studio and had set up a saw outside. The guys on the high rise construction next door first looked at me as one of the guys. Hey, blue jeans and a flannel shirt! Later in the day however, they showered me with whistles and hammers tapping out for attention. And the truckers hauling steel would slow down gawking, blow there horn, and smile. (The horn on top of the truck!) So even though I was covered in sawdust, and can swing my own hammer, I am a woman. If anyone wants to argue with that, well, I will bring around a couple of the guys twisting rebar who whistled. at me.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
As is typical for anything Autumn Sandeen is involved in the posts over at PHB have been censored for some lame reason.
Why is it TG people are so afraid of criticism?
Why are TG’s collectively insecure?
I guess the TG’s do believe in freedom of speech, only for them not those who disagree.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Laura_Mac
Why you say Sue?
It’s not the freedom to say whatever you want and no one can disagree. Such a claim is the home of someone truly insecure and who’s arguments simply can’t stand up to disagreement. So when someone brings up a counter they cry foul.
Or in simple terms your freedom does not extend over and interfere with mine to do the same.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I agree with you but the tactic of silencing opposition is one that the TG community has used a great deal.
it shows a certain dishonesty when people no matter what they relieve can’t stand up to their opposition.
it’s no wonder ti me that after nearly 18 years the TG rights movement can’t get very much traction.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
It is also a typical tactic, repeated over and over and over again by certain exponents of the “opposition” (or the home team, in your case), to escalate the argument to a point where the only reasonable thing to do is shut it down… and then claim “silencing”.
The simple fact is that certain people don’t want accommodation or middle ground of any kind - indeed, they are very explicitly, militantly and vociferously against it - and their entries into this “debate” are largely tactical.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
if y’all can’t take a little heat from those of us who identify differently then you then how can you expect to be ready for activism in mainstream America where y’all will see a lot more heat.
However it is very typical of Autumn Sandeen to silence any opposition that hs what Sandeen does best.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Laura_Mac
It’s no wonder with all the infighting that goes on with all the ‘trannier than thou’ people claiming those who didn’t do things their way aren’t real.
Jan 29th, 2008
Laura_Mac
No one likes the middle ground, that’s for communists.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Of course, activism has been proceeding quite nicely and will continue to do so. Activists of all sorts take plenty of heat, both from within and without, and keep on trucking.
Really, it’s your own irrelevance that so irritates you, and drives your apparent commitment to gnawing at other’s shins.
Jan 29th, 2008
Tobi
The one thing that bothers me the most out of all this debate is the way people are dismissing others’ genders because they disagree. I don’t think it’s appropriate for the commenter to refer to trans women as “males” at all. And I really don’t like how “male privilege” and “maleness” is getting thrown arond as a way to undermine other people’s arguments. Perhaps privilege, but male privilege? I don’t think so.
I’ve seen it here when folks call out Sue, and others, for male privilege or male-ness. I’ve seen it whe Sue talks about women who haven’t had or don’t want surgery as somehow being a less dificult, valid, or female experience. And I hate it.
As for the biology argument, I might hesitate to call myself female-bodied, especially when visiting the doctor, but I actually don’t consider myself male-bodied at all. I mean, a male body does not look at all like how mine looks right now. How do you define that anyway? Chromsones? Hormones? Secondary sex characteristics? Genitals? You can’t possibly say that someone is male-bodied until they achieve femaleness in each of those catagories. That’s akin to the one-drop rule.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stassa
On that note, I have to ask Val to explain Nexy’s law.
Jan 29th, 2008
Les
When rad fems argue that mtfs can never be women, aren’t they arguing that biology is destiny?
I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, I’m going to tell you this ONCE, then I’ll just ban you…. STAY ON TOPIC. I didn’t ask about the PHB comment ending. You are silencing any debate by making the topic about what you want it to be.
Jan 29th, 2008
Niss
Heart’s blog/comments have been linked here so many times, I’m not sure what the point is in giving more attention to them. The whole priveledge argument alone strikes me as antiquated and that territory has been gone over plenty.
Jan 29th, 2008
Niss
I’ve been active in the feminist movement for years and I’m not sure radfems meet the normal criteria for the term “feminist.”
I agree wholeheartedly about. It’s rather self contradictory… gender as social construction and gender essentialist at the same time.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
What’s even more entertaining is that they cheerfully embrace - and are embraced by - HBS/WBT individuals, whose actual ideology is directly antithetical to their own, sharing only the single common point of contempt for “transgender” and everything to do with it.
It’s clear to me that attitude - in this case the attitude of militant separatism - is a more fundamental basis for alliance than any principal agreement.
Jan 29th, 2008
Autumn Sandeen
We closed down the comments because the name calling and community bashing was inappropriate, and frequent. I didn’t shut down the blog on my own volition — It’s Pam’s blog, we play by Pam’s rules.
Because SoapBox (Pam’s blogging software) doesn’t allow for threads to be closed while keeping the comments available for view, we’ve been trying to figure out how to make the previous comments available for view. So, I made a copy of the thread’s comments with Acrobat this morning, and Pam is going to post the PDF via a hyperlink (or as a hypertext link) so that people can read the previous comments while not having the ability to add anymore comments.
The difficulty we had there was a number of comments that violated Pam’s Terms of Service, which state:
And going through the thread, we found one commenter had described transgender people as “misogynistic men,” “men in dresses or non-op/top-op F to Ms.,” and as “queens.” She also stated that people who have had SRS, but choose to retain contact with the transgender community, as living in the “transgender “ghetto.” That was deemed abusive and hateful speech per the PHB Terms Of Service. She wasn’t the only one who engaged in inappropriate name calling and community bashing by far, but her case was the most egregious violation of site policy.
Leaving the thread open would have invited more comments that violated policy, so we shut the discussion down. If folk want to continue this discussion, they should go to forums hosted by people who describe themselves in terms of HBS and/or WBT, vice taking the fight to an arguably LGBT blog.
Basically, I’d argue people who espouse separatist philosophies should probably consider hosting their discussions “separately” from folks who aren’t separatists.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
But I am male. I am a woman. I don’t see those as the same thing. If a future culture would dig up my bones, they’d ID me as male, by my pelvic outlet, skull size, and my chromosomes. How do I define male bodied? I think it’s a mix of chromosomes, bone characteristics and reproductive ability. Just because I have SRS, doesn’t change my biological footprint.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Anyway, on the original topic:
> While I live in this society as a woman, the reality is that I’m male bodied and a surgically constructed vagina will not change that.
I think of myself as trans-bodied. Certainly I have a male skeleton, genotype, organs (prostate, no uterus, etc), as do most other transwomen. But hormones and surgery have had a pretty profound effect on my morphology. And outwardly - at that interface between myself and the world around me which is the reference point for “identity” - I would seem to be more female-bodied than male, even if a bit anomalous.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
But I make a distinction of female and woman. I’m treated by this society as a woman, but if I was examined after my death, I’d be ID’ed as either a transsexual or male.
When a post op says “my doctor couldn’t even tell”, Paraphrasing SRS surgeon Marcie Bowers, “You need a new doctor.”
I’ve known transmen that have been with transwomen and natal women, and they’ve told me that the vagina’s, while looking a lot like, they are distinctly different in secretions, smells, taste, and in feel.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Nice Try Val…
I am not on some Ego Trip trying to push people into believing my dogma.
I just live my life as a Post-Transition Female an HBS survivor.
It’s You People who are attacking US for our right to believe and identify as we wish.
Transgender is an idea not based on science but based on hatred of the two gender system that permeates all of nature.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I am On Topic
By the way what happened to the PHB comments?
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
But I think there is an unexplored difference. Most of society won’t look at my pelvic outlet or chromosomes when deciding if I am male or female. The privilege issue isn’t one of sex, but of gender.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I get that and agree… Val that is a great way of describing it.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
and for some of the same reasons they would site you as male they would site me as famels.
That is the blessing or curse of intersex.
Pelvic opening Female
Digit ratio Female
Head size Female
You don’t have any right to call an XXY female Male
and don’t you ever forget it Marti.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
But, I wonder, does that affect the quote from women’s space/the margins? I don’t think so. I think HBS folks are laying claim to the female body, not a trans-bodied.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Really Marti
there are three ways to do reconstructive genital surgery sounds like you have only experienced one.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Trans bodied is a construct that has nothing to support it.
what biology supports “trans bodied”?
sue
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
I’ve known transmen that have been with transwomen and natal women, and they’ve told me that the vagina’s, while looking a lot like, they are distinctly different in secretions, smells, taste, and in feel.
Seems to me you best try one for yourself. I have been told repeatedly by more than one person and in particular by my husband that my vagina tastes like any natel vagina… go figure!
As for the doctor not being able to tell the difference, it might be due to who did the surgery. We all know that “Products” from asian countries are often detectable as knock off’s. I suggest looking for the “Made in Thailand” tatoo found just inside the vaginal canal
As we know, HBS women being elitist and bigoted bitches supporting republican values and christian attitudes all had their surgery in the west. Only transgenders buy foreign.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stassa
So, um. Where does XXY fall within that two-gender system?
Jan 29th, 2008
Stassa
Ugh sorry, Marti, I didn’t see your post below.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, one more comment about PHB and I’m banning you. If you want to be part of the discussion here, you will NOT hijack it.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Autumn, I understand your reasoning for explaining the drama, but please, make this be the last comment about it. I do not want to get caught up in a debate about PHB.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
> Only transgenders buy foreign.
According to your ideology, yes. Apparently the criteria for “True Transsexualism” now include the provenance of one’s genitals.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Marti needs an education.
The two men i was with before i settled in with my girlfriend said exactly the same thing, she also agrees with the two guys. Besides i have been with a number of women myself and my female oder is exactly the same as with the half dozen women i have been with. Oh nearly forget they all agree when they take me for a test drive there is no difference.
Certainly some of what comes out of Thailand there is only one place to go over there and He is the most expensive of the lot and has higher admission standards.
There is only one place to go in Thailand…
Been there…
Marti needs to learn that some of the US surgeons are just learning and have a decade before they are up to speed if at all.
On a sad note..
Few people who go for reconstructive surgery do their homework. I did and found the best when money and time are not of any concern to be Dr Suporn.
I could have gone to the best in the US but who wants to wait 6 months to a year to have the work finished. when you can take a month off from work and have the work finished and come home with no complications.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
LOL. Sue, I have the right to say anything I damn well please.
If you’re interesex, you really don’t have a horse in this fight.
Most intersex people I’ve spoken with are offended by HBS, for the same reason as the commenter above. It’s a turf battle over intersexed bodies.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, I’m sure you’re much more educated about it than an OB/GYN and SRS surgeon.
This has NOTHING to do with surgical techniques, but biological functions.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
I’ll be honest here: I couldn’t give a rat’s fart about The Margins or anyone who posts or comments there. I would be as likely to give credence or consideration to Stormfront, or The Family Research Council.
But yes… it’s obvious that in fact HBS/WBT individuals are specifically “laying claim to women’s bodies.” Of course, the rhetorical slight-of-hand they use to justify the position is that they are women, therefore they are claiming only their own body. A position I might even agree with, if they were not so adamant about staking that assertion on the implication that anyone who does not conform to their self-serving expectations is not what they claim to be, and is therefore an opportunist (or “colonist” in the lexicon of the oppressed)… and if that position were not obviously opposed to the principles of their supposed allies, the lesbian separatists.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stassa
No offence, Leigh, but I think the problem is with your husband’s taste, not yours.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Oh so this this discussion is for XY people alone?
that is a nice way to not deal with the issues.
You haven’s spoken with very many intersex people have you? and none outside of the TG community.
I have a horse in this race honey.
Some of my friends are TG identified.
Not to mention I have a Paleo-Transgender history.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Maybe Marci Bowers and I need to go to Thailand to be schooled about real woman vagina’s™.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
You obtained your surgery in Thailand?
Ah, then by Susan and Leigh’s standards, you are a wannabe.
Game over.
By the way, there are at least three “respected” SRS surgeons in Thailand. Suporn was himself trained by Preecha, who was also Chettawut’s mentor. They all have high standards of work - and ethics - and are thus the ones that most transwomen go to.
Not because they’re wannabes. Not because they’re trying to end-run the SOC (I think that far fewer people actually do that than the fundamantalists seem to believe). But simply because it’s less hassle and less cost. Which you would think that someone like Susan - Ms. Self-Actualized Her Own Bad Self - would appreciate.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Sarcasm alert…
Nice way to side-step the issue Marti.
Why don’t YOU actually do some homeowrk on the subject.
Although as a Non-Op i guess that is one race you don’t have a horse in Now is it.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I disagree. While it is a construct, it is one supported biology by fat distribution, secondary sex characteristics, etc.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Watching Sue pretend that she’s making an argument is a lot like watching my brain get sucked down a toilet.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Marcy Bowers
cough!
I have seen her work first hand.
She needs a lot of practice.
She hasn’t even done 300 surgeries yet her technique is still rough.
It will be at least a decade before she has the skill Dr Biber had let alone three of the best Thai Surgeons or Dr Meltzer.
I am not saying she can’t get there I am saying she has a long way to go yet.
Unlike the most of the A-Team surgeons she has No Cosmetic Surgery Experience. I wouldn’t even think of going to someone who has not done facial reconstruction for at least a year, i would prefer two Like My doc.
You show full well your lack of knowledge on the subject. Some of us spent two years doing research and for good reason.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Even though I disagree with The Family Research Council, would it be wise to disregard something they say simply because of who they are? I think not. I think that type of thinking causes dialogue to stop and rhetoric to replace debate. My ultimate goal isn’t about being right, but about honest debate.
Jan 29th, 2008
eastsidekate
A lot of these posts (such as the one at Margins) claim that there are substantial numbers of people that live as men most of the time, that choose to occasionally call themselves women, and use women’s spaces. I’m inclined to agree about what a horrible thing this is– it’s exactly what they say it is, a “colonization” of women’s spaces by insensitive people.
But here are the problems I have with this:
1) There tends to be a massive amount of tokenization going on. One trans person says or does something they disagree with, and suddenly all trans people are the enemy, and treated with no respect.
2) I haven’t seen any examples of this actually occurring. What are we talking about here? Crossdressers in women’s locker rooms? Transsexual women with penises in the women’s dressing room? That’s sort of what comes to mind, and I’m not sure if it ever happens.
You can make the argument that Lisa Vogel is free to exclude trans women (or any other group) from her private campground. Personally, I’m also willing to accept that (it is her right), although I will call it bigoted.
Again, we really need specifics. Is the argument that trans women with penises shouldn’t be allowed to use women’s restrooms? Because, that’s sort of what it sounds like, and it’s BS.
Rather than painting all trans people and all situations with a broad brush, it would be good to think about what’s sensible in a certain place and time. Then again, most of these posts and threads aren’t exactly steeped in nuance.
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
val…. comedy .. humor … get it? No ?
… ok sorry, another trait of “true” transsexuals I guess
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Three points:
The Family Research Council has never said anything of merit. Experience alone is sufficient to disregard them.
There aren’t really that many ideas in the world. Anything that it might be important for me to hear, I can obtain from more honest and useful sources, without the baggage that always attends the words of those who work in bad faith.
There is no “debate” with ideologues and fundamentalists. There is only conflict.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I disagree. For instance, they make the statement that a two parent family is better for a child, than a single parent family. In an honest debate, the truth of that statement is statistically provable. So is the fact children of gay or lesbian parents are no better or worse off because of their same sex relationship in the raising of a child. In debating these issues, it’s not to change the mind of the extremist, but of moderate.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Actually
there are over forty surgeons in Thailand who do GRS.
I was shocked when i found out about that fact…
You nailed the three that are known to the be the best…
Preecha was trained in the west and improved on the technique he was taught. Suporn did likewise Chettawut i can’t speak first hand.
He gets good reviews over at Susan’s Place.
It’s true some have a ethnocentric view regarding surgery (only those in my country are the best) This attitude is flawed based on the fact that GRS is relatively common in Thailand. Most Thais have their GRS before the age of 18. The doctors over there get lots of practice. The culture over being Buddhist simply accepts TS people as people and “the path you are on is the path you are suppose to be on”
They have a different version of the SOC over there… You could say it is easier however there is a catch. the gender/sex roles of women are not nearly as liberated as they are in the western world. Thailand is much more of a Male run society then in the west.
Besides spending 30 days over there i spent a few dollars and read up on Thai History and culture. I didn’t want to make a fool out of myself while i was there.
Many of the people who talk down about the Thai surgeons ether don’t want to go over seas or don’t want to give up the time. Some stateside surgeons will have you back on your feet and out the door in ten days.
That is a little too short for me.
It’s common for the Thai surgeons to make small revisions as the patient is healing to prefect the result.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Yes, but that same idea - that a two-parent family is better - is made more honestly by other parties. The FRC need not be brought into it in order to have a productive discussion on that topic.
Which was my point 2.
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
Probably so .. after all he never tasted dick so he would’nt have your vast experience to go by ….
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I agree. It’s akin to saying that all African Americans are lazy, because you know an African American that is.
Agreed. That type of argument is illogical. How can it not be esssentialist to say that anyone with a penis (or history of having a penis) is a rapist or a sexual predator?
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
That is cosmetic
How are you borne Transgender and what sets that apart from being TS where TS must have their genitals reconstructed?
Please explain.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
We have female bodies.
end of story.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Stassa
GASP!!! Do you mean to say I …
suck dick????
OH MY GOD!!!
I AM BEING
… paid a compliment?
“Vast experience”?
Hey, I knew we could be girlfriends!
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I have some friends that are African American, but I do NOT pretend to represent them in debates.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Homework? Sue, unlike you, I’m a trained health care professional. I actually have done “the homework”. I see bodies from the inside out, so I’m distinctly aware of the differences in anatomy.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Marci’s surgical expertise and her ability to identify a surgically created vagina are two totally different things.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, that isn’t cosmetic. Really, you should pull out a dictionary every once in a while. There is a biologic(physiological) difference between my breasts and a natal males. If I had breast implants without being on hormones, that would be cosmetic.
Transgender is an umbrella term about gender variance, transsexualism is a medical term. I’m both.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Since i have a Paleo-Transgender history. )
what is your point dear?
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
So the quote is right? You are fighting over “the female body”, “laying claim to ownership”?
Jan 29th, 2008
Felix
Eastsidekate just said more or less what I was going to say. I’m from the UK so not always sure about American terminology but assume a “restroom” for women is public toilets/lavatories? These have cubicles so how on earth could anyone possibly know whether or not a person using one had a penis or not??? I suppose the urine stream might sound different but unless the person is in there to asault or spy on women, what’s the problem? Quite few feminine-looking FTMs use women’s toilets because we don’t pass easily as guys and some of us have (prosthetic) penises. We don’t wave them around - why would anybody else|?
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I agree, you won’t debate them directly, but you can debate others that spout their rhetoric as fact.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
SomeHow i doubt you ahve seen very many bodies that are outside the norm.
quantity is not a substitute for diversity.
That doesn’t mean you know a whit about surgical technique, now does it?
I shall answer that for you
It doesn’t
Sue
PS…
why don’t you just admit your a Non-Op you love your borne genitals and the privilege that go with them, and admit that you don’t give a rat’s ass about what we HBS folk really think.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Maybe you do
in the big leagues Marcy is a first year Rookie.
She still has not spent a single hour doing facial reconstruction, has she.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Good to hear you found a real one that you like.
Most men are dogs….
the ones who hang out with trannys are well…. You know…..
Just not right….
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
> why don’t you just admit your a Non-Op you love your borne genitals and the privilege that go with them, and admit that you don’t give a rat’s ass about what we HBS folk really think.
And this is where the actual bigotry makes itself plain. To people such as Sue, there is no possible perception other than her own, and she feels infallibly competent to judge and diagnose the character and motivations of… well, just about anyone.
To Sue and her cohort, anyone who is not now post-op is by definition someone who “loves their male genitals and privilege.”
The generalization is as hideous as it is false, and its presentation here puts Sue squarely in the camp of the deranged.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Give me a break it is cosmetic
Take some hormones drink some beer and you ahve the butt of a woman.
Come On Marti
You can do better then that.
That is not something you are borne with.
Trans Bodied?
The Easter Bunny
Santa Clause
The boggy Man(or woman if you wish)
The Tooth Farry.
All the same.
You think that just because you can make something up that makes it reality.
Sorry not in this world.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
You really are letting all your pathologies hang out this evening, aren’t you?
Monica Helms was right. You are a total fruitbat.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I only lay ownership to what i was borne with.
Those transgender people who won’t give up their male privilege and their genitals don’t belong in certain woman’s spaces.
Those who give up those man things do belong.
End of story.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Surgery also produces a trans body.
Orchiectomy (did you ever have one before you got SRS?
FFS (did you ever consider it?)
SRS (…)
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
Sue ..
Thanks, and yes I am very lucky to have found one. I don’t agree that most men are dogs though, I think there are lots of nice guys out there but most of the non-dogs are taken.
… as for the tranny chasers ..
I believe there is someone for everyone … god made those for the transgenders ya know
Jan 29th, 2008
Felix
I think you can be “borne transgender” - I reckon I was. To me, gender feels like an invisible(spiritual?) identity which may be expressed physically by certain alterations to my body. I honestly don’t see enormous differences between male and female anatomies - natal men have breast tissue, natal females have a clitoris which is identical to the glans penis in material and structure. Any changes I make to my morphology will be to suit ME, not any definition of how a man/woman “should” look. It may involve hormones or surgery but will not depend on them. This sort of transition went on for millenia prior to the infancy of SRS within the medical profession. People with “opposite” gentalia were honoured as whatever gender they claimed and IMO that’s a damn sight more civilised than the current stae of affairs.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
> I think HBS folks are laying claim to the female body, not a trans-bodied.
Of course. They are irretrievably transphobic…and I mean that literally. They live in absolute horror of any possibility of ever being or having been “trans”. Because trannies are icky, you know.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
And the reason why you haven’t had genital reconstruction?
There is nothing false about it.
Your going to have to grow up and deal with the mainstream some day and they are going to ask YOU the same questions?
That is the way the mainstream sees things;
Male=penis
Female=Vagina
Didn’t your parents teach you the Facts of Life?
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Hear, hear!
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Leigh,
I guess my bad experience with men is showing….
With that said your right about all the good ones being taken.
I am happy for you.
As for me.. I have a wonderful girlfriend and i am very happy.
—————————-
Val…
Just because i thing Tranny Chasers are not worth going after doesn’t make it a pathology.
Some would say your the one with the Pathology.
I shall leave that to more qualified souls.
If you are happy that is what counts.
Between you and me The taste of Dick is not so bad if like other vegetables you wash it first.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Transphobic that depends on their experience with transfolk.
Given some here i can see their transphobia being justified.
However i get a little flack from both sides on this one. because i support what the promoters of HBS are doing and i my best friend is TG.
Sue
GO figure.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
> Between you and me The taste of Dick is not so bad if like other vegetables you wash it first.
This is the second time that someone here has made a prejudicial assumption regarding my sexuality.
It is the umpteenth time that you in particular have made unwarranted and prejudicial assumptions about someone you’re arguing with.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Hay you know..
I could say the same thing about all those nasty comments you have made toward HBS identified Females.
But i didn’t.
If it is getting too warm in the kitchen can i suggest the living room where the conversation is more tame.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Oh? where have I made any inference about the sexual or other proclivities of HBS-identified individuals?
I haven’t. I have discussed identity politics and surgery.
God. Never mind. I keep forgetting. This is your one game, and you’ll pull it all night.
Bored now.
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
NY Italian accent required here :
“Wads wid dees tranny chaser’s anyhow” ?
“They say day are straight but like to suck dick”!
“Whadda day do… Get up in da morning and toss a coin”?
“Heads:…. Fur Pie”! …. Tails:…. Balls across the nose”!
???????????????
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Paleo-Transgender history? You are an old or ancient transgender person?
Prefix
paleo-
1. very old; prehistoric
2. very early; primitive
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
One thing i would bet Marti doesn’t know…
Why did all the hospitals and doctors offices when you and I were growing up have Copper Door Knobs?
I guess you don’t know…..
Well i will tell you..
Copper is anti bacterial.
Since 1979 i haven’t seen a copper door know or handle on a hospital door (in side or out).
They do have them in Thailand.
In Thai Hospitals they don’t have a problem with MRSA or VRSA
Do you know what these are?
Do you know how many people in US hospitals suffer from Post-Operative, secondary infection?
Maybe Marcy should start practicing overseas.
Have a nice day hon.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Old yes
Old school yes.
Primitive No.
We got along just fine with straight folks. I was living full time and working in the defense electronics industry in 1980.
What were you doing then hiding in a closet somewhere i suppose.
The problem with people like you is you didn’t learn to grow up before going full time.
You think you need to turn the world into your personal Tranny Ghetto.
It’s not going to happen Marti.
We the people who live in the mainstream won’t let it happen.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I could never figure that out.
Maybe we have it all wrong and it’s breasts that are the real separator between men and women
Hetro homo who really cares.
I am just a lesbian in love with another woman.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue said:
Then you’d be wrong. I’ve been a Cat Scan technologist for 8 years and an x-ray technologist for 13. I’ve seen more anatomy than you’ve posted comments on websites. Your lack of logic is staggering, since if anatomy is diverse, I’d have seen the diversity.
Val said:
Well, while I do believe in male privilege, I’m not sure what privilege there is in appearing female, but having male genitals.
Sue said:
Wow, so you’re the genital police now?
Sue, this was my original comment to you. In every picture of you I’ve ever seen, you don’t pass as a natal female to me. People don’t typically go around searching other people’s undergarments to decide if someone is male or female. They go on what they see. And when I look at you, I see someone that looks gender variant.
Jan 29th, 2008
Leigh
Sue …
Breasts on women .. beer belly’s on men .. thats why we fit together so well
… seriously though .. Love cares not the vessel it resides in.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, your factoids are nothing short of Cliff Clavinish. MRSA and VRE (not VRSA) are not common because antibiotics aren’t prescribed nearly as much as they are here.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I do just fine hon…
I don’t have a brow ridge like yo have and an Adams apple of any kind. Besides unlike you don’t need to worry about passing i am female.
By the way I saw your post up on TGV Advocacy That was really mature shall i repost it here for every one to see.
I find it laughable you think of yourself as a “Super Star”
To quote your exace words.
Who kissed your feet this morning. or was it your butt.
Real Pillar of the community
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I can quote the rest if you want.
I keep all my emails.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
your only partially right….
the spread of diseases in hospital is directly related to the lack of copper door knobs and it has been proven.
They are not used in new construction because they cost 8 to 10 times as much.
I am glad it’s you working there and not me.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Logic is not your friend…. just because you aren’t born with something doesn’t mean that your physiological makeup hasn’t changed. If you look at mammography of a transwoman and compare it to a natal male, there is a huge difference in tissue.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
That is really true Leigh.
True love in unconditional
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
You said you had SRS, does that mean you had a penis? After all, if that’s true, you’re claiming ownership of a female body based on surgery.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Logic is my my friend.
Go have fun with fake const5ruct.
or get GRS and a real life.
This is getting boring.
Have a nice day honey.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I fixed a birth defect.
being XXY that peace of meat didn’t belong there.
What about you?
Jan 29th, 2008
Stellewriter
What are we going to do when the evidence and research is posted to show that Intersexuals and Transexuals are part of a continuum of endocrin and congenital gene disaster. Do you suppose we would all have a group hug, and then ask why HRC and Barney Frank do not love us?
But please, let’s get a hold on our hormones and extraneous body parts and treat each other like we need each other, because we do!
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I was in high school…..
Oh yes Sue, you’re the epitome of maturity.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stellewriter
Side note: if anyone of you work in the geno research area, please share some of the latest findings.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
By the way I guess that is the way you treat all interex people.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
You also forgot to post a sign saying Caution Egomaniac At Work.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I never stated I’m not gender variant (although I don’t have an Adam’s Apple of any kind). You don’t have to worry about passing? That’s how people judge your sex, not what’s in pants.
My post to TGv was to make a point that those old timers (activists that actually DO things like activism) are being treated differently from newbies… and that isn’t fair.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stellewriter
Hey Stellewriter, Why don’t you bail out of the tranny crap and get a life? You know that no one really cares about making a change that will help others other than themselves. Are you numb or what?
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Your point is as always is…
when you are cornered you always resort to calling even XXY people men.
That is all you can do to redeem yourself except for repeating a four letter word 39 times.
Honey your Roots are showing and i don’t mean your hair.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Leigh
Kate ..
I think the main objection is that the HBS/transsexuals claim anyone who is not either in serious transition or had surgery, should not be using the womens room.
Of course the problem with that is how can anyone tell who is or isnt in transition or post op?
The transgenders want the law amended to allow virtually anyone to use any bathroom they feel identified with. That will never happen since after all we are talking about womens rooms not trans anything rooms and the women of the world are not going to allow that at all.
So, instead of the transgendered just leaving the bathroom issue in the status quo where women dont feel threatened, they have to push for this right and the result of this will be ……..
… a law that outlaws any trans anything in the bathroom, much like the way they have strengthened DOMA.
Fact is that if the bathroom issue ever came up on any ballot I can guarentee that most females will vote to ban all men and all trans-everything from their bathrooms.
For HBS/transsexuals, pre op and post op this sort of law would open them up to huge discrimination, lose them their jobs, out them in the newspapers etc etc etc…
The transgenders for their part .. the non-ops, the transvestites and the crossdressers would simply not be affected that much since they do not have to live full time and would not be the ones that are caught in the mess. For those of us that do live and work 24/7 we don’t have a choice.
Thats the real issue.
Its one of, but not all of, the issues fueling this Transgender Vs HBS/Transsexuals war. Until the transgenders think about what they are doing and the consequences they may bring, this war will grow exponentially.
Jan 29th, 2008
Stellewriter
I just think about those who could find no one, I mean no one, to love them, or even show that they were worth knowing. Those who in desperation put a rope around their neck and jumped off the balcony. I think of those who are locked out of their past and into the cold and lonely silence of transexuality. No one to love them, not even themselves….
Not even others who should know how deeply they need to be accepted. Strange that one who is bleeding should deny another recognition that they are bleeding too.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Some HBS folk would be affected by a ban on trans-anything being allowed in the bathroom.
some with proper documentation wouldn’t be bothered at all. HBS folk need to work with state officials to get Birth certificate reform in all fifty states. instead of half of them. The states that won’t allow new birth certificates and seal old ones should be persuaded to do so, i believe with the help of mental health and medical professionals this could happen.
If you are borne in California a law banning anyone but females in the ladies room would not affect you if you have executed all your court orders.
Anyone Post-Transition who was borne in California can go to any state in the union including California and marry legally.
California defines legal sex by what the birth certificate says and will issue a new one on evidence genital reconstructive surgery and a court order.
Oh and before anybody gets cute and sites Oiler and other cases like it…
Oiler had an amended birth certificate not a new one.
DOMA doesn’t effect TS borne in California if they have done their homework.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Apparently you don’t know the difference from male and man.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
Sue, how long did you use the men’s room after going fulltime in 1980?
If you had surgery 10 years ago, that means that a) Suporn had only been doing surgery for 4 years and b) you’d have been using the men’s room for 18 years living fulltime as a woman. People with men’s genitals shouldn’t use the woman’s restroom, right?
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
bu bye now.
Jan 29th, 2008
eastsidekate
RIght, but my point is that I’m not sure that I’m aware of any people that have argued that “virtually anyone” should be allowed to use whichever restroom they feel most identified with.
I’m also not aware of any legislation (either enacted or proposed) that specifically addresses the issue of trans people in bathrooms.
Further, I’m not sure how it would be possible to enforce a ban of transsexual women (or those with HBS) from women’s restrooms. On a day-to-day basis, who can tell which women have been raised as women from birth, and which ones weren’t?
All of this seems like a huge red herring– it’s as if a certain subset of transsexual women (or women with HBS) are trying to solidify the legitimacy of their gender by issuing vocal attacks on those with less acceptable forms of gender expression.
Lastly, I’m not sure how respectful it is to refer to people as “transgenders”… linguistically, it’s akin to saying “those things”.
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
LOL. Most intersex people I’ve interacted with are offended by HBS.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I know what You Think the difference is.
I got to tell you that TGV-Advocacy post is a keeper.
Do you really think you are some kind of activist Super-star?
Because you are not.
Activism begins at home even Martin Luther King practiced that.
and you have the BALLS and i do mean BALLS to call me arrogant, what a laugh.
………
Sorry had to pause a little so i could stop laughing.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
See that’s the difference between us Sue. I actually do stuff. You post comments to websites. Part of activism is to ACT.
I won’t pull out my activist cred because other people recognize it and have expressed it for me. Can you say the same?
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
I started using the ladies room contentiously in 1988, that year i was booted out of a men’s room at the AMC Mission Valley 20 Multiplex. .
I had my GRS on November 21 2003 so it was not ten years ago
I don’t know where you get your facts but it is not from me.
once again i am not the one that says TG’s and Pre-Op’s shouldn’t ues the ladies room.
Do you have a reading comprehension problem?
I hope not i would hate to see yu loose track of what you are doing on the job.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Danae L. M.
Nope, no biology textbook would call an XXY either female or male - but I’ve seen such things as AIS women designed as males, simply on the basis of Karyotype.
Jan 29th, 2008
Danae L. M.
Or at least it would be quite unlikely.
Jan 29th, 2008
Felix
I wonder what would happen if/when it becomes possible for transwomen to have wombs and ovaries genetically grown and transplanted? Will there be lots of arguing about the ones going without being “less real” than the others? Just felt like stirring it.
Jan 29th, 2008
Leigh
Kate -
“RIght, but my point is that I’m not sure that I’m aware of any people that have argued that “virtually anyone” should be allowed to use whichever restroom they feel most identified with.”
read this blog .. its been eluded too by many
All of this seems like a huge red herring– it’s as if a certain subset of transsexual women (or women with HBS) are trying to solidify the legitimacy of their gender by issuing vocal attacks on those with less acceptable forms of gender expression.
While the transgender believe that statement there can be no peace or gains. They must realise that not everyone can win this the way they are going.. as with all things getting a foot in the door is better than having the door slammed in your face.
“Further, I’m not sure how it would be possible to enforce a ban of transsexual women (or those with HBS) from women’s restrooms. On a day-to-day basis, who can tell which women have been raised as women from birth, and which ones weren’t?
“
Oh right .. you have never met a trans person that didn’t cut it ?? Is that what your telling me ?
Jan 29th, 2008
leigh
Sue -
I agree it would not effect everyone but for those it does effect its a nasty scenario and one that can be avoided.
I definatly agree that federal legislation recognizing post ops as being a full member of their *target* gender is badly needed.
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
You must not know very many then.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Sue
Leigh,
The bathroom isn’t really the problem it’s the other women’s spaces.
I have been a lot of places in the US and never had any trouble for all the years i have been using the restroom…
Transpeople need to realize
Their invitation into women’s spaces is just that an invitation.
Transpeople may find out if they get too pushy that invitation will be revoked.
Sue
Jan 29th, 2008
Marti Abernathey
I don’t think ANYONE has said that. Even ENDA doesn’t say that.
That is exactly why I consider HBS women an adversary. We will win. It is a matter of common sense and attrition. It may not happen tomorrow, next year, or in my lifetime, but it will happen. Getting a foot in the door? Hardly. Look who’s passing legislation on the local level. Look who’s advocating for transgender people of all flavors. The only HBS person that even closely resembles an activist is Ms Cooke.
Oh yes, I’ve seen a person of paleo-transgender history. She claims to have passing privilege, but I’d ask you if you believe that’s so. Judge for yourself:
here and here.
Passing has nothing to do with if you have a vagina or a penis. I used to date a transgender woman that started her path as a drag queen, but stopped performing and continued to live full time. She’s one of the most beautiful women I know, is petite, wears size 8 shoes, and has never done hormones or had any surgery of any kind. She’s also one of the most passable transgender women I’ve ever known. I can’t believe it’s hard for so many to understand.
Jan 29th, 2008
Val
Oh my lord she’s an autogynephile.
And that’s the self-proclaimed epitome of True Transsexualism?
Oh, what a tangled web we weave, eh?
Jan 30th, 2008
eastsidekate
This is likely the last I’ll say on this (or related threads) for a while, because it’s all been said before, but the argument I’m hearing is that:
1) People with other identities sometimes behave in ways that make me angry.
2) My identity as a woman is authentic.
I agree with both of those points. As it happens, both are true for me, too. The problem is, the two statements aren’t linked. It’s not a zero-sum game. This happens over and over and every level of society– certain members of some group try to assert that they should be accepted, because they’re not freaks like those people over there. It’s tiring. We can argue for the legitimacy of the womanhood of transsexual women (and women with WBS) without talking ill of other people.
Jan 30th, 2008
Felix
“A transperson that didn’t cut it”. Cut what? Looking like the natal version of their gender? Sure. I have also met a number of NON-trans women who have regularly been mistaken for transwomen because of height and bone structure and had rude things said about them in the Ladies room. We don’t carry ID cards in the UK so any challenge in this area had to be met with a verbal explanation - not a nice experience for the women concerned.
Jan 30th, 2008
Sue
I also am becomming tired of this…
I would think transgenders would be glad to see those of us who they hate for having surgery and moving on with our lives finally out of their little community.
We never asked to be a part of the transgender YOU took the term that granted us by one of the discoverers of our affliction and turned it into something it is not.
We are so sorry our existence offends you like the Jews offended Hitler.
Like the native Americans offended the Europeans who took this land from my ancestors.
why are you afraid of us leaving Your Movement. You have done nothing for us that we haven’t done for ourselves before you ever thought of having a transgender rights movement.
Leave us the Hell alone You don’t need us and we sure as the day is long don’t need you.
Sue
Jan 30th, 2008
Sue
it’s funny you know you can post all the photoshopped pictures you want.
while the second link is my picture taken in Thailand in December of 2003. the first are not.
tomming from you and i might add you don’t do much for your look whatever that is You certianly are in no position to judge passability.
I also find it laughable trannys like you are the first to start whining about passing privilege.
Maybe you need your eyes checked there are lots of frumpy plain looking middle aged women out there.
oh well i wouldn’t have expected anything but a Male Chauvinist comment out of you and your ilk.
This is why you get called men in dresses by the real feminists.
who largely ignore us.
One more thing
Get some voice lesions
You sound like a man. You don’t even use female inflection or cadence.
There is a little peace of your passing privilege you could work on dude.
Jan 30th, 2008
Ethan St.Pierre
There are only 2 states with explicit laws
barring transgender people from changing their birth certificate (Tennessee and Idaho) and one state with a lower court ruling that hasn’t been challenged in quite some time (Ohio).
Jan 30th, 2008
Sue
There is a large difference between changing your birth certificate (amending it) and sealing it and obtaining a new one.
A new birth certificate does not have the person’s previous sex on it.
This may seem like a technicality to many however it is not.
Sue
Jan 30th, 2008
leigh
I think thats what I said Sue ..
Jan 30th, 2008
leigh
You are missing the point Marti .. or more like side stepping it .. I am not about to waste my time trying to explain it .. teaching pigs to sing is futile ..
I will say that its bad form to publish or link to pictures of someone on this blog without their permission … but then you knew that too..
Jan 30th, 2008
Sue
i find it interesting that Marti must on the one hand post a page i have nothing to do with and altered images of me were posted without my permission.
While my yahoo 360 page is open to the public I am that would have been sufficient to make Marti’s point. instead Marti discredits the argument Marti is trying to make by posting a link to a hit page that is pure fiction.
What Marti reviles here is the rot that exists within the transgender community.
The male chovinism, the self centered xenophiba and the ego-maniacal lust for power and control over the lives of others.
Marti you and your ilk are festering scapula on the face of the transgender movement
Is it really any wonder the movement never gets anywhere and who HBS identified men and woman are leaving to tend to their own needs.
You can quote me on that.
Sue
I would like to hang around but i have things to do.
Jan 30th, 2008
leigh
I have to agree with both Kate and Sue on this. It’s just enormously tiring to keep going over the same ground ad infinitum ..
Its pretty obvious to me that there is no meeting of the minds on these subjects, nor can there ever be. Most of this is argument for argument’s sake. While this can be hugely entertaining it accomplishes nothing and in the end result leaves all of no further forward.
In a recent statement elsewhere on this blog I made the statement that while I am a “classic” transsexual woman having had surgery in what may become known as the “golden era”, I am not HBS in the total definition of what the HBS define as HBS.
I took some flak from the HBS for posting that
statement. There was mention of selling out and perhaps even a shunning like I was suddenly “Not Genuine”. However I stand by the statement because I see no point in going to the other extreem view that HBS are somehow intersex. Some may be, of that I have no doubt but from what I have seen its as un-winnable an argument than for a non-op transgender to say that they don’t need surgery to be the woman they say they are, even if I and others dont buy it.
For me, the measure of transsexualism of a given person will always be the extent to which they will go to correct and become the woman or man they say they are. For me, there are no part time transsexuals. For me, there are no non-op transsexuals except in the case of those that cannot for medical reasons. For me, a non-op transsexual is not the same as a transsexual that would if they had the money and will when they get the money. For me, there are no late term transsexuals that rediscovered themselves during a mid life crisis on the internet. For me, there are no transsexuals that will not, only those that will make things happen or die trying. For me, all the rest are something else but they are not transsexual.
I can already feel the venom that those statements are producing. These are and always will be my views on what it is to be transsexual. These views, like your views, are not up for discussion. I care not how anyone receive’s them or to what extent they hurt those that feel them to be exclusionary to them. These are MY opininons, MY beliefs. They come from 30 years of my experience living full time in my target gender and having interacted with others in society from all walks of life. They are not elitist, bigoted or exclusionary. They just are my truths and always will be. I shall take them to the grave.
The times they are a changing. Perhaps, hopefully not in my lifetime, the rules will change. Perhaps society will all become as one and the individual will become part of the collective and all things will be equal to all people. That is certainly not what I would like to see happen as I don’t believe in communism or a collective. I believe in individual will and that some will succeed where others fail. I believe that the measure of a human being is not in what they can do as a whole, but what they can do as an individual.
Leigh
Jan 30th, 2008
Sue
Marti doesn’t care
Marti will do anything right or wrong to support Marti’s activism.
This is the morally bankrupt doctrine of situational e