If trans women aren’t welcome, neither am I
September 25, 2013
Miss Gender: How to spot a TERF
September 30, 2013

[UPDATED] Cotton Ceiling: Uncovering the trans conspiracy to rape lesbians

The mere mention of the “cotton ceiling” should send rapey shivers up your spine. If you’ve not heard of it here’s the lowdown from feminists:

Transgender cotton ceiling rapists hold male-only (Planned Parenthood sponsored) seminars, write books, host lecture tours, and endlessly spam lesbian websites and blogs with rape and murder threats over lack of male “inclusion” in lesbian social gatherings, lesbian organizing, lesbian events, lesbian music festivals, and – most importantly- lesbian bedrooms. 1


Planned Parenthood Toronto is helping to sponsor a March 31 conference in Toronto that includes a workshop inviting participants to discuss and strategize ways they might be able to “overcome” women’s objections to these participants’ sexual advances. We believe that no means no, that a woman’s right to say “no” to sex at any time is sacrosanct and that no explanations should ever be requested because none is ever necessary. The name of the workshop proposed is “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women.”

– Petition against the cotton ceiling 2


Activists want to force lesbians to consider them as sexual partners. 3

Sounds really horrific, doesn’t it? Transwomen, full of male-privilege, feel that lesbians must submit to having sex with them or else they’re transphobic. Right? I mean, multiple lesbian feminists are all saying the same thing. Even Cathy Brennan has a cotton ceiling tag. Certainly these self-identified lesbian feminists wouldn’t lie, right? Certainly these self-declared feminists wouldn’t purposely misrepresent cotton ceiling in an effort to make ciswomen fear trans people, right? RIGHT?!?

[Cotton Ceiling commenter] you are a male sexual predator, enabling your male predator brethren. Which is why you and all your Cotton Ceiling buddies creep me the fuck out… These dudes in dresses are trying to guilt-trip you into sleeping with them, and name-calling you if you don’t. There is nothing wrong with not liking penises or male bodies, and preferring female bodies. To say otherwise is lesbianphobic. 4

Horrific, isn’t it? Planned Parenthood held a workshop to teach transwomen how to make lesbians have sex with them. I want to reread the previous sentence and think about that for just a moment. Then reread the rhetoric about the cotton ceiling. With a straight face, these self-identified feminists asserted that Planned Parenthood taught transwomen how trick lesbians into sex.

Seriously. And you know what? A lot of people believed it.

Here’s the reality:


There! See it? It says right there in the description: Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling will explore having sex with lesbians who don’t want to have sex with trans people! It says it right there… oh wait… it doesn’t say that at all.

Can you guess how many attended this,  the workshop-heard-round’-the-feminist-world?  Was it…

  1. 250 workshop attendees
  2. 150 workshop attendees
  3. 75 workshop attendees
  4. 50 workshop attendees
  5. 25 workshop attendees
  6. 10 workshop attendees
  7. 7 workshop attendees

If you guessed 7, you’d be correct. Let that sink in for a moment. All of this over a workshop with 7 people.

Care to guess what they talked about?

Would it really surprise you to know that what they talked about was body image and shame?

Seven people met to talk about body image and shame and Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (TERFs) claimed that Planned Parenthood was organizing a meeting to teach trans people how to rape lesbians… and many, many people believed it. Were you one of the folks who believed that Planned Parenthood was teaching corrective rape?

TERF opinion leader and lawyer, Cathy Brennan

TERF opinion leader and lawyer, Cathy Brennan

I want you to pause for a moment and think hard about the notion that TERFs are pushing: transwomen support corrective rape.

Here, let me break down the basic TERF rhetoric:

TERF: Teh cotton ceiling is all about teaching trans people how to rape lesbians!1!!


TERF: Yeah, Planned Parenthood gave a workshop to teach trans people how to rape lesbians! No means no!

Dupe: That sounds a little strange to me…

TERF: Don’t believe me? Google any of the many, many, many TERF blogs that freaked over the Planned Parenthood workshop! #rapeculture

Cathey Brennan

Cathy Brennan

Dupe: Well, I did hear about how transwomen want to hang out in the women’s restroom…

TERF: Yup, it’s all about rapey rape culture!

Dupe: Yeah, I guess tranwomen are kinda rapey…

TERF: I KNOW, RIGHT?!?! Spread the word!

Dupe: I’m totally blogging about this!

Think about all the fear and enmity TERFs managed to generate over the Cotton Ceiling during this past year. They took a small meeting about shame and body image and purposefully twisted it to dupe people into believing that Planned Parenthood was teaching corrective rape tactics and MANY people believed it.

Planned Parenthood + Trans people = lesbian rape conspiracy... or not.

Planned Parenthood + Trans people = lesbian rape conspiracy… or not.

TERFs did what they almost always do. They equivocate in their arguments:

Original workshop description:  

Participants will work together to identify barriers, strategize ways to overcome them, and build community.

TERF Petition to stop the workshop:

Planned Parenthood Toronto is helping to sponsor a March 31 conference in Toronto that includes a workshop inviting participants to discuss and strategize ways they might be able to “overcome” women’s objections to these participants’ sexual advances.

Cathy Brennan, TERF Opinion Leader

Workshop supporters have suggested that “Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling” is intended to facilitate a discussion about the social construction of sexual desire. Even if this were the case, being a lesbian is not a prejudicial social construct to be overcome by expanding lesbians’ limited political consciousness around trans women’s “gender identity.”

From there all a TERF need do is appeal the transwoman-rapist meme the radical right pushes while referencing the TERF petition and sit back and enjoy their malevolent handiwork.

TERFs making sure their 'trans people are rapists' narrative gets into women's magazines

TERFs making sure their ‘trans people are rapists’ narrative gets into women’s magazines

Back when all of this began, trans folk were really clear about what the cotton ceiling was about:

This, from the individual credited for popularizing the phrase, "cotton ceiling"

This, from the individual credited for popularizing the phrase, “cotton ceiling”

Or as a cisgender dyke organizer put it:

The idea of the “cotton ceiling” is intended to draw attention to how even in spaces that are politically and socially welcoming of trans women, transphobia often retains its influence on how we understand who is sexually desirable and who isn’t. It’s no different from other politicized criteria for desirability—people who are, for instance, fat or disabled are also often welcomed into queer women’s space but not seen as desirable compared to those hot slim, muscular, able-bodied sorts. This isn’t our fault—our entire culture tells us what’s sexy and what’s not, 24 hours a day, and that definition is terribly narrow. But it is really easy to forget how much influence advertising propaganda and social pressure can exert on what gets us wet and hard, and to let the mainstream’s terms dictate our desires. 5

If a small group wanted to talk about how ableism affected cultural notions of beauty and/or desirability, would feminist circles tolerate TERFs going on a yearlong campaign, claiming that those who aren’t able-bodied want to force lesbians to have sex with them?

In a culture that devalues and oppresses trans people, why is it not appropriate to discuss how these cisnormative beauty standards impact notions of desirability, how these biases relate to the fetishization of trans people and how all of this impacts the perception of trans people in queer spaces? Why is it not appropriate for transwomen to ask themselves how this affects the way we see ourselves and/or how this affects the way others view us?

Why don’t TERFs want trans people to have this discussion?

How would such a conversation affect the anti-trans TERF narrative they’ve been pushing for decades?

because the fact of the matter is that unlike born-women, who have everything (literally, everything) to lose from rape culture, transwomen have at least something (everything?) to gain. to a transwoman, cutting off her dick and turning it (inside out) into a fuckhole between her legs makes her feel better. from transwomens own mouths, we know that these fake fuckholes alleviate transwomens suffering. turning their dicks into extra-large condoms for other men to penetrate (or not, whevs…thats my hat-tip to the internet “lesbian transwomen”) actually tamps down their anxiety, and feelings of dysphoria.  6

Today the Frankenstein phenomenon is omnipresent not only in religious myth, but in its offspring, phallocratic technology. The insane desire for power, the madness of boundary violation, is the mark of necrophiliacs who sense the lack of soul/spirit/life-loving principle with themselves and therefore try to invade and kill off all spirit, substituting conglomerates of corpses. This necrophilic invasion/elimination takes a variety of forms. Transsexualism is an example 7

[Transsexual surgery] could be likened to political psychiatry in the Soviet Union. I suggest that transsexualism should best be seen in this light, as directly political, medical abuse of human rights. The mutilation of healthy bodies and the subjection of such bodies to dangerous and life-threatening continuing treatment violates such people’s rights to live with dignity in the body into which they were born, what Janice Raymond refers to as their “native” bodies. It represents an attack on the body to rectify a political condition, “gender” dissatisfaction in a male supremacist society based upon a false and politically constructed notion of gender difference.

Recent literature on transsexualism in the lesbian community draws connections with the practices of sadomasochism. 8

This should be a simple issue. How could our oppressors – men – possibly become us? How? Just by saying they are?  By the male medical industry and doctors making money off this game, declaring that they can turn men into women?  Would you agree with these men if they claimed to be a different race than they are, a race they are in a position to oppress?  Would you believe them if they claimed to be of a different species?  Why not?

If you do accept them as Lesbians, would you (as a Lesbian) want to be lovers with one?  Why not?  If you are hesitant to say “no” to their claims and demands, in spite of what you feel inside, why?  What is it that makes you agree to something that doesn’t feel right?  Does it remind you of other times when it was hard to deal with a man who refused to take “no” for an answer? 9

How would a serious discussion about our transmisogynistic culture, and its influence over notions of beauty impact anti-trans TERF messages?

How does shutting down this discussion benifit the TERF narrative?

Does it benifit the anti-trans TERF aims and goals to not only stop this discussion, but to colonize it in such a way that feminists would instinctively view the discussion as being an inherent part of rape culture?

“Transwomen” are not and can never be women or Lesbians – they are simply men, trying to steal our identity and culture… One way to begin to fight their oppressing Lesbians and women is to refuse to give them what they want. At the very least, PLEASE stop calling them “women” in any form, and stop using female pronouns for them… they act like typical men and intimidate and guilt trip – everything is about them. And the hell with any Lesbian who gets in their way. Some have also learned what to say to sound believably female, but if you question a bit further, they revert quickly to male bullying techniques. As for those who do have surgery, men do a lot of bizarre things for sexual gratification, such as strangling themselves to have more exciting orgasms, which has resulted in some unintentional suicides (such as that by David Carradine.)

As Janice Raymond says, “All transsexuals rape women’s bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating their body for themselves.”  It’s actually reminiscent of the “Invasion of the Body Snatchers.” 9

I think there’s a reason TERFs have put so much effort into colonizing this discourse. I think there’s a reason that they framed their colonization of trans discourse as rape prevention and I think that reason is plain to see.

I submit to you that TERFs do not want the trans community to have this discussion and they certainly do not want the cis community to question where they picked up their views – good/bad/indifferent – of trans people. I believe that such a discussion would further isolate TERFs from the rest of the feminist world.

To be clear:

TERFs have spent a year strawmanning the conversation so that a discussion about this…

… became a discussion about preventing a trans rape conspiracy supported by Planned Parenthood.

And so, by way of summation, an excerpt from Cesaire:

… Lying is your trademark.
And you have lied so much to me
(lied about the world, lied about me)
that you have ended by imposing on me
an image of myself.
underdeveloped, you brand me, inferior,
That is the way you have forced me to see myself
I detest that image! What’s more, it’s a lie!
But now I know you, you old cancer,
and I know myself as well

10/1/13 UPDATE: 

Curious to know how TERFs have reacted to this post?



Tweet 1.) A repeat of the TERF rhetoric over the past year: Trans people want to rape lesbians and Planned Parenthood is in on it.

Tweet 2.) Refer to the Dupe rhetorical narrative noted above

Tweet 3.) A threat to harass even more trans people unless trans people STFU and just take it.

I submit to you that the above snapshot of TERF pablum beautifully illustrates the vicious obtuse hubris that is TERF dogma. This rhetoric should be openly mocked, rejected and denounced by reasonable people the world over.

1. http://tinyurl.com/ms5289e

2. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/917/570/206/support-womens-sexual-autonomy/

3. http://tinyurl.com/oa3lsy9

4. http://tinyurl.com/mj3vlcc

5. http://www.transadvocate.com/if-trans-women-arent-welcome-neither-am-i.htm

6. http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/rape-culture-birthed-the-neovag/

7. Gyn/ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism by Mary Daly, pp 70 – 71

8. Sheila Jeffreys

9. http://bevjoradicallesbian.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/bev-jo-radical-lesbian-writing/

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Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams
Cristan Williams is a trans historian and pioneer in addressing the practical needs of the transgender community. She started the first trans homeless shelter in the South and co-founded the first federally funded trans-only homeless program, pioneered affordable healthcare for trans people in the Houston area, won the right for trans people to change their gender on Texas ID prior to surgery, started numerous trans social service programs and founded the Transgender Center as well as the Transgender Archives. Cristan is the editor at the social justice sites TransAdvocate.com and TheTERFs.com, is a long-term member and previous chair of the City of Houston HIV Prevention Planning Group.
  • Answer the following three questions, if you can:

    1.) Do you believe that should a fat woman say that men who have “no fat chicks” bumper stickers are fat-phobic, these fat women are, in actuality, telling bros that they are discriminating and oppressing fat women just by not being sexually interested in them?

    2.) Do you believe that should a Black woman say that White men who are repulsed by Black women are racist, these Black women are, in actuality, telling White men that they are discriminating and oppressing Black women just by not being sexually interested in them?

    3.) Do you believe that should a differently abled woman say that non-disabled men are ableist if they refuse to consider dating someone like her, these differently-abled women are, in actuality, telling them that they are discriminating and oppressing differently abled women just by not being sexually interested in them?

    • Willow

      Interesting questions. This is my view. If a man has a “no fact chicks” bumper sticker then larger women have every right to be annoyed at that. If a man says he is “repulsed by black women” then black women have every right to be annoyed by that. I used the words “discriminating and oppressing” because I have seen those exact words used in Cotton Ceiling articles. And I believe if any of those groups say someone is discriminating against them by not considering dating them that is crossing a line into guilt tripping. I believe anyone can turn anyone down for any reason. No explanations necessary.

      However, you seem to be conflating sexual preference with sexual orientation. These three examples are about sexual preference, whereas when lesbians are reluctant to date trans women it is very often because of their sexual orientation.

      Hope that answers your questions.

      • In same way you assert larger and Black women get to express annoyance, some trans women are “annoyed” by cis men & women publicly proclaiming “no trans chicks.” Some trans people express annoyance when they hear cis people say trans bodies are repulsive. So, when you see a trans person expressing annoyance about this issue, maybe don’t pretend that expressing annoyance is the guilt tripping?

        Also, pretending that trans women can’t have female phenotypes is kind of annoying.

        • Willow

          I’ve never heard a cis person say “trans bodies are repulsive” but if they have that is truly awful and I definitely condemn it. But don’t pretend that that is what the Cotton Ceiling is about. Did you actually look at any of the videos and articles I linked you? It’s guilt tripping and emotional manipulation all the way. If some lesbians speak out about this to try and protect younger women from being manipulated how can you really blame them?

          • Perhaps you’ve not personally seen it, but have you not observed Janice Rayomd devaluing the bodies of trans women through the use of the ad naturam fallacy, asserting that our bodies lack humanity, rhetorically constructing us to be “deeply decaying” *products*, not people and certainly not women. Surely you’re not blind to the ways sex essentialist activists talk about the bodies of trans women.

            Greer publicly states trans women aren’t women because we don’t have “big smelly vaginas,” while Jeffreys publicly states trans women aren’t women because our vaginas smell bad worse than hers. Has it not occurred to you that dragging out the smelly vagina trope is a page torn directly from patriarchy’s playbook? Have you not heard sex essentialists talk about the bodies of trans women in the exact way misogynists talk about the bodies of cis women? Have you really not heard your sex essentialist activist comrades describe our vaginas as “hatchet wounds”?

            Can you point me to where you’ve condemned this type of dehumanization and hate?

            As for myself, I don’t blame anyone for trying to protect anyone else from being manipulated into sexual situations. Sex via manipulation is rape and conflating that with trans women talking about how sex essentialists construct our bodies as vile, fake, inhuman, inherently rapey, etc. is nothing more than facilitating the debasement of your trans Sisters.

  • juan

    how are you gonna tell who’s trans and who’s cis huh? check their genitals? By the way, trans women have never experienced male privilege, due to the fact that they aren’t male. it’s called gender dysphoria and has a net negative compared to “male privilege.” Being addressed constantly as the wrong gender, being made fun of, harassed at rates higher than cis women, hated by both conservatives and TERFS, not “real men” but apparently not “real women” either, stuck in the no-man’s land of ‘third gender’ freakishness, not male or female, never loved or accepted, just a group of perverted rapist weirdos who mutilate themselves and, oh yeah, rape women. they get killed on the streets but sadly can’t go to any shelters since they are “women only, oh wait I meant birth women even though there’s no way I can check so lemme just be a bigot”

    and you wonder why the suicide rate is 42%

    fuck this shit when I’m done transitioning Imma be in whatever “cis women only” space I want. Try and stop me.

    • Olivia Moore

      Hey Im on Your side on this. Im for trans peoples rights

  • juan

    Cotton Ceiling means saying a trans woman is a man. Which is false. Rape is rape either way, a cis woman raping a woman is still rape is it not? It’s still just as bad is it not? Would TERFS rather be raped by a cis woman or not raped by a trans woman? Well, judging by some comments, it’s clear that TERFS would rather be raped by a cis woman, because apparently trans women only exist to rape women. What a group of retards. Never though anyone could possibly make SJW’s look bad but it seems TERFS have gone and done it.

    • Willow

      The Cotton Ceiling is one group of people being told they are bigots for not being sexually interested in another group of people. No one is obligated to be sexually interested in anyone. No one is obligated to even consider anyone else as a romantic partner, regardless of which groups of people you’re talking about. It’s not physical rape, but to pressure and guilt trip people over who they date is kinda rapey!

      • ANYONE trying to pressure another into sex with “or else” statements is a sexual predator. Having said that, ANYONE claiming cotton ceiling conversations are about rape is at worse a bigot and at best, a credulous dupe.

        ALL oppressed groups have “cotton ceiling” conversations: fat people, small people, people of color, differently abled people, etc. Pretending that queer people weren’t having “cotton ceiling” conversations in the 60s and 70s is a demonstrably false understanding of history.

        Should an anti-Black activist exclaim:

        “The Black ‘Cotton Ceiling’ is one group of people being told they are bigots for not being sexually interested in another group of people. No one is obligated to be sexually interested in anyone. No one is obligated to even consider anyone else as a romantic partner, regardless of which groups of people you’re talking about. It’s not physical rape, but to pressure and guilt trip people over who they date is kinda rapey!”

        I might raise an eyebrow and wonder if a racist is, yet again, rationalizing their anti-Black bias by, this time, pretending the conversation is about consent instead of a conversation about examining at all areas of anti-Black bias. Is it reasonable to conclude that a bro-dude with a “no fat chicks” bumper sticker making the above quote regarding fat body types is merely a sentiment made out of a preference unshaped by fat-phobic culture? Is it reasonable for larger women to wonder if the “no fat chicks” bro-fad is about reinforcing and normalizing certain fat-phobic culture that perpetuates the oppression of all women? Or, would you claim that large women who wonder about those “no fat chicks” slogans are actually rapists who just want to pressure these bros into having sex with them?

        • Willow

          Firstly, I never said that cotton ceiling advocates were rapists just that the whole thing is rapey, which it is. There has been a constant onslaught of articles, YouTube videos and tweets all telling lesbians they are discriminating and oppressing trans woman just by not being sexually interested in them, some in very vulgar terms. The very term ‘Cotton Ceiling’ is based on the ‘Glass Ceiling’ that women are trying to break through to achieve equality in employment, suggesting lesbians not wanting to date trans women is a big injustice that needs to be changed. So please don’t pretend this is an innocent conversation about bias. Plus if you’re claiming someone’s preferences are due to bias against a group you’re saying you know better than they do who they’re attracted to, which you don’t. Leave people alone to live their life how they chose!

          • Since there is a “constant onslaught” of “articles, YouTube videos and tweets all telling lesbians they are discriminating and oppressing trans woman just by not being sexually interested in them” since 2013, you won’t have any difficulty citing just 25 examples that unambiguously meets the metric you yourself have set. That’s half a decade of a “constant onslaught” which means you must be aware of many thousands of such examples. Picking the worst 25 should be a trivial task… unless you’re misrepresenting the facts and certainly you wouldn’t do that, right?

            Evidence-based conversations are valuable, don’t you agree? Therefore, I’ll just mod all of your comments until you cite just 25 examples from the 100os you must know of that meet the metric you’ve constructed. Certainly you’re motivated by evidence and not ideology so you’ll have no difficulty in substantiating your fact claims.

            Also, nice job at ignoring the Political Lesbian conversation from the 60s and 70s. Well done!

          • I see that you attempted to comment. The metric for you being able to participate on this platform further was to share, “just 25 examples that unambiguously meets the metric you yourself have set” because you made the fact assertion that there was half a decade of a “constant onslaught” of “articles, YouTube videos and tweets all telling lesbians they are discriminating and oppressing trans woman just by not being sexually interested in them.”

            Unless you can find 25 examples that unambiguously meets the metric you yourself have set out of the presumable 1000s you must know about, then you will not be able to participate on this platform any further.

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  • Ennui

    Cotton ceiling= wanting to rape women that aren’t interested in male genitals. Pretty gross.

    • Olivia Moore

      Same with political lesbianism. The rape or coercion of straight and bi women to be with lesbians. Guilt tripping them into it. Both are wrong.

      • Willow

        Political lesbianism is very wrong, however I think it’s very much a thing of the past.

        • Olivia Moore

          Sadly it is not a part of the past. It’s still alive and kicking. Take Julie bindel for instance. I’ve come to the conclusion that feminism is intrinsically embedded in lesbianism and our movement. It has colored our views on sexuality very much and this is very troublesome.

          • Willow

            Most lesbians today believe sexuality isn’t a choice therefore you can’t identify into being a lesbian. Julie Bindel’s views on this topic are crazy.

          • Olivia Moore

            The push for it is still big in places. Same goes for transsexuals. They found proof why they become transsexualism their brains are more like their lived gender. I.e. their brain sex are opposite to that of their bodies. Same thing that cause lesbianism and being gay. It’s bio neurological. With this said I am not arguing anyone should be with or have sex with anyone they do not wish to be with as I believe that is completely wrong. People cannot help their sexuality and no one have the right to force anything upon anyone.

          • Willow

            ‘The push for it is still big in places.’ – Which places?

          • Olivia Moore

            Lesbianism, at least from what I have seen. I have a huge issue with an ideology that’s trying to define my sexuality. Feminism should not be allowed to influence lesbians. Sexuality and ideology should be kept separate. I find it to be very very predatory and I am not okay with that.

          • Willow

            In what way is feminism trying to define your sexuality? If you don’t mind my asking.

          • Olivia Moore

            It’s trying to tell me the way I should be as a lesbian, that I’m oppressed and that men are by nature evil. I am only into women, yes. Feminism is trying to tell us how we should be as lesbians. I am not okay with that. It’s trying to tell me how to think, how to act and I hate that. It’s completely predatory.

          • Willow

            I’m sorry to hear you’ve been going through that. No one should be telling you how to think, how to act or what to wear. There Is no right way to be a lesbian. If you don’t mind me asking, what type of feminism is being such an oppressive force in your life? Is it intersectional feminism or radical feminism?

          • Olivia Moore

            Thank you for your understanding. It freaking sucks. I’m being picked on for being me. Feminine. No they don’t have the right to tell me how I should be or how I should behave. Indeed there’s so many ways to be a lesbian but we’re all lesbian, so the way I am should not matter. A lot of my friends are becoming more and more radical. So radical feminists.
            I was raped by my ex gf and they tell me women can’t rape period. I am beyond my self with anger and distaste for feminism and their actions. They will no longer be my friends if they keep it up.

          • Willow

            Sorry to hear you’re being picked on. I’m a feminine lesbian too, and lesbians can come in all different shapes and sizes, there are no rules. I hope your friends will learn to see that or that you meet new friends who do.

            Sorry also to hear about what happened with your ex girlfriend. Women can rape. It does happen. Shame your friends can’t be empathetic about it. I hope you have someone else you can talk to, family member maybe or counsellor.

            Anyway, stay strong and be true to yourself.

          • Olivia Moore

            Thanks. Eh I need to get some new friends. I’m working on it. Yes that’s the thing lesbians can be which ever way we choose to be or which ever way we’re incloned to be. I don’t get why some lesbians think you have to be a certain way act or look a certain way. To be honest I’m getting fed up with them and luckily I have a lot of other friends to spend time with. But yeah they have left me starting to hate feminism.

            It was some time ago, I have had time to process what happened to me. I was just baffled by how they reacted when I told them. Saying women can’t rape. At the end of the day though not being friends with them any more is their loss. Not mine. I went through counseling and I talked to my parents about the rape and that helped me a great deal.

            Thank you. Stay strong and thanks for listening. 🌸🌸

  • Willow

    The rad fems didn’t have to twist anything to make the cotton ceiling sound creepy. Everything that’s ever been written about it, including the course description is creepy af.

    • Oooh! Projection!

      • Willow

        What does that even mean?

    • SurfingDumbledore

      Exactly. The description of the course itself sounds disgusting. As a lesbian the “cotton ceiling” discourse never fails to creep me out. Gross. Lesbians don’t like penis. Respect that.

      • Olivia Moore

        I agree that the cotton ceiling is shit. However we have to keep in mind that ya lesbians are not innocent. We keep doing the same thing. Political lesbianism is a good example. Where at best the theory force straight and bi women to be celibate. At worse it’s guilt tripping straight and bi women to be exclusively with women because men are the enemy and you shouldn’t sleep with the enemy.

        Also us lesbians are trying to convert straight women all the time. Not respecting there wishes. Some of my lesbian friends is doing it for sports. I know your argument is going to be but but but… there’s no problem with doing this the woman was bi anyways. Okay then if a trans woman wants to be with a woman and she finds one who likes her then they are either bi or pansexual right? So then the same curtesy should be applied to them don’t you think? I’m lesbian my self as I’m exclusively attracted to women. If I am with a trans woman then fine call me pansexual. You can have your word lesbian. I’m too tired to argue over labels.
        I’m just curious I’m not blaming you for this just asking. Do you think it’s okay for trans women to be with women? I’m really not blaming or accusing you of anything. I’m just curious what your thoughts are.

        • SurfingDumbledore

          I’m a lesbian and this is the first time I’m hearing about “political lesbian”. Granted I’m pretty young but I do not see lesbians clamouring to turn straight girls or bi girls gay. On the contrary bi girls and straight girls seek to colonise the word “lesbian” and destroy it’s meaning. I do not care who trans women want to be with. I care that they have the audacity to tell gay and lesbian people to “examine their preferences” like conversion therapists did in the past. I care that trans women tell penis-repulsed lesbians that their sexual boundary is bigoted and “transphobic”. I care that trans women seek to erase the spaces meant for natal women only because it’s transphobic to acknowledge biological reality. Trans women are trans women. They do not share the exact same experiences as natal women and recognising that isn’t transphobic. It’s unfortunate that lesbians not being attracted to trans women might hurt trans womens feelings but it’s not bigotry and its not the job of lesbians to validate trans women identity at the expense of their sexuality. It’s bizarre to call anyone’s sexual boundaries as bigoted (unless they are morally wrong i.e. nonconsensual). There shouldn’t even be any talk about breaking into the sexual boundaries. And yes if you are a “lesbian” who sleep with trans women then you aren’t really a lesbian. You are either bisexual or pansexual. A lesbian is a female homosexual who is attracted to the same sex (other females). Trans women are biologically male (gender and sex are two different things). Words have meanings. I take issue with anyone calling themselves lesbians if they are sexually attracted to trans women and sleep with them. Even if y’all misuse the word lesbian there will always be another word for us homoSEXuals who are attracted to the same SEX not gender. There should be a word for “cis” women who are only attracted to other “cis” women since the meaning of the word lesbian has been colonized and utterly destroyed by liberal feminists and trans advocates.

          • Olivia Moore

            Okay. Basically political lesbianism is feminism influencing lesbians. It has ever since since feminism is intrinsically tied to lesbianism and it shouldn’t be. Ideology and sexual orientation should be kept separate. I find it to be very predatory and invasive. Anyways political lesbianism is pretty much forcing straight women and ni women to be with other women. It’s the exact same thing as the cotton ceiling. At best it forces women into being celibate.
            I see lesbians trying to turn straight and bi women into lesbians all the time. It happens really often. They see it as sport to turn as many bi and straight women as possible. This is wrong on so many levels. My point being that we act the same. Nah honestly both straight and bi women even trans people are for your rights and have fought for your rights. Some bi girls might try to colonize the word lesbian, but straight women are straight. This seem tied to feminism. Which is unfortunate. I agree that the cotton ceiling is absolute shit and I strongly dislike it. However it’s a minority of trans people that think that way according to statistics. Statistics also show that they think people are attracted to who ever they are attracted to and no one have the right to tell anyone who they should or shouldn’t be with. Like I said before it’s a loud stupid minority that agree with the cotton ceiling and I believe they are so very wrong. Who ev peopl are attracted to isn’t bigots t all. People can’t help who they are attracted to or not. As for female only places. I have no issues with trans people using the restrooms. I do however not believe it’s okay for a trans person to use showerrooms of their experiences gender. If they are post op I have no issue with it. When it comes to meetings and the like I don’t believe the majority would want to go to a place where they are not welcome. I wouldn’t like to go to a place where I’m not welcome for being a woman. True biologically their bodies will never be female. And no they do not experience the same thing a genetic woman does. That being being able to bear children or get a period. That’s the only difference though. Trans women face misogyny if they don’t pass they face misogyny and misandry. So the suffering is similar there and some that isn’t. It isn’t transphobic to say they won’t carry children and they can’t be on a period no. That is facts. I agree it’s not bigotry of a woman turns down a trans woman same as it’s not bigotry if a straight woman turns down a lesbian. I’ve heard lesbians scream homophobia over this. Again we have done this as well. I am not a lesbian who sleeps with trans women. It hasn’t happened yet. I am not sure if I would tbh. So far I haven’t met any trans woman I have been attracted to. But I don’t know. So I’d say I’m lesbian. I do get why you’d be protective of the word lesbian considering how things were in the past. Personally I don’t mind them using that word. As long as people respect others sexuality. Use what ever word you want to use. I have no issue with lesbian only being our word. That’s the beautiful thing about sexuality. You are attracted to who ever you’re attracted to and no one have the right to tell you otherwise. Personally I’d never be with that type of a lesbian. I am simply not attracted to them.
            You’re entitled to your opinions and I’d never ever fault you for them. I’m wishing you a beautiful day.

          • SurfingDumbledore

            “True biologically their bodies will never be female. And no they do not experience the same thing a genetic woman does. That being being able to bear children or get a period. That’s the only difference though” nope. Women are opressed because of their biology. Trans women do not face the same misogyny as a natal women. Things trans women never experience: childbirth, reproductive rights(abortion and birth control access), female genital mutilation, menstruation, reproductive diseases such as endometriosis, breastfeeding. Do you think people ask the little girls sold into human trafficking and sex slavery what gender they identify before raping them and selling them? Do you think people asked the women and girls in China what gender they identify as before forcing them into the barbaric foot binding practice? Do you think people asked the millions of baby girls what gender they identify as before killing them in China and India? Women are oppressed because of their reproductive biology and although some trans women do experience some form of misogyny because they are percieved as female (majority of them don’t pass though so i doubt they experience misogyny the way females do) they do not in any way experience the same misogyny that natal women do. Saying otherwise is grossly dishonest.

            You seem to be under the impression that I hate trans women. i don’t. For the people who truly experience gender dysphoria, I pity them and think that they should live a peaceful life how they want. But I don’t think they have tje right to police lesbian sexuality or erase spaces meant for natal women. I don’t think they should deny the fact that they have male socialization. That they have male privilege(because they are still biological males). Feminism is for females. It’s not meant to be inclusive. Sexuality is not meant to be inclusive. I do not agree with the rapey rhetoric of some trans activists.

            Regarding the part about political lesbianism, i don’t know if i believe you because that has never been my experience so as the other comment mentions, it’s probably a thing of the past (if it’s even true). I can’t comment on that since I never personally experienced it. And even if it were true, so what? It doesn’t change the fact that the whole cotton ceiling discourse (which appropriates a very real issue that women face in the work to champion their “right” to be sexually desirable ew) is damaging to lesbians and rapey and disgusting. What’s the point of derailing this convo about the rapey connotations of the cotton ceiling discourse with irrelevant stuff about “political lesbianism”?

          • Olivia Moore

            I’m leaving this discussion. I don’t want to make you angry. We see eye to eye about the cotton ceiling. I hate it. Luckily though there’s only a loud minority who agrees with it and the cotton ceiling in my opinion should have never been made.

          • SurfingDumbledore

            I’m not angry. Just frustrated. Can’t you see my points about trans women not experiencing misogyny the way natal women do? I was honestly curious about your response to that. In addition you haven’t said why you keep bringing up political lesbianism despite the fact that this discussion had nothing to do with that. I don’t see the point of doing that other than the derail the discussion. The cotton ceiling discourse is garbage that should never have been coined in the first place. I’ll agree with you on that.

          • Olivia Moore

            Blaaaarh I did reply. I wrote a long long message, but for some reason it disappeared and I really don’t have the energy to re write it for the third time. Yes I understand you.

          • SurfingDumbledore

            Well I enjoyed the convo up till now. It’s a shame cos I really want to see how a trans activist/liberal feminist would respond/counter that. It was interesting to speak about this with a fellow lesbian though. Have a great day. I wanted to add that I do not support “political lesbianism” even if I’ve never experienced it and I expect trans activists/liberal feminists to condemn the “cotton ceiling discourse” the same way.

          • Olivia Moore

            I’ll get back to you when I have more time. Work and life is kinda hectic right now. But I’ll get back to you.i enjoyed the conversation as well. I like seeing others viewpoints as I get a better understanding of their viewpoints. I am neither a trans activist nor a liberal feminist. I am only for everyone’s equal rights. I don’t support either political feminism nor the cotton ceiling as I believe both try to force sexuality into people and that’s wrong on every single level. Next time I’ll lonk to political feminism. I can quickly tell you why I brought it up. I’m all discussions I have seen on the internet and some in real life people say us lesbians have never done anything like this ever. We do however have the political lesbianism and the matter of fact that a lot of us lesbians try to convert straight or bi women. I merely mentioned it because we have done the same thing and to not agknkwledge that is disengenous. (Keep in mind this is not to say that you are denying that in any way. I do not blame you if this or anything else. I welcome your opinions. I believe everyone’s opinions and concerns are important.) anyways when things calm down in a day or so I’ll get back with a longer message. Have a nice day and be safe.

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  • Olivia wilson

    Funny that they never mention political lesbianism which is saying all women should be lesbian especially if they are feminists. At best political lesbianism is forcing women to not have sex at all. I find it hilarious that they never bring this up.
    The hypocrisy is strong with them.

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  • Ahhh. TERF’s. Really, how many of us would want to sleep with someone who does not like or respect us? I wouldn’t. The last person I’d ever want to be around, let alone share a bed with, would be anyone with a remotely TERFish ideology, although they’d like to fantasize otherwise for some twisted reason.

    Please, can we stop using “transwoman”? I’m a trans woman. I’m a woman who is trans. It really nags at me to read an article with that compound word in it over and over again.

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  • Pingback: In defense of the Cotton Ceiling Insufferable Intolerance()

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  • Cathy Brennan was on the Roseanne Barr Radio Show today, spouting her anti-trans bile. I think she tried to be a bit subtle about it, but Roseanne seemed to know what Cathy’s agenda was and asked some great questions. You can see the show notes and a listen to the show at the links below.

    Roseanne Barr Radio Show http://bit.ly/1dB6IoE
    The podcast of the show is dated Oct 27, 2013 http://bit.ly/HaQswK (The show starts at about 7:10.)

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  • TERFs should be mocked without mercy for this. Really? 7 women met and this is your “cotton ceiling” conspiracy? LOL! ROFL! LULZ. No really fucking laughing at your so hard right now.

    • Truly. Part of me looks back at their rhetoric campaign and I’m horrified. The malice with which they both colonized and then exported the strawman argument into feminist discourse is horrific.

      They used that Fox Newsy rhetoric trick where if you keep strawmanning something long and loud enough, eventually the target of your strawman campaign will respond. When that happens, the discourse shifts from the actual issue and onto the fallacious TERF assertion so that the fallacious assertion colonizes the discourse.

      It’s insidious and repugnant. The intellectual turpitude with which they’ve conducted themselves if horrific. That they – TERF opinion leaders, not just random trolls – would pass of their transmisogyny as rape prevention is a betrayal of the foundation of feminism. It’s appalling.

      I think that at this point, anyone making the “cotton ceiling = rape” argument should be immediately regarded as a ridiculous clown masquerading as a feminist.

      • The TERF version of “cotton ceiling” looks nothing like the original. 7 trans women met in a workshop to talk about their sexuality. Unfortunately, transphobia is ingrained in society. The reason some cis lesbians do not consider trans women as viable intimate partners does rest on a bit of transphobia. I don’t consider this version of transphobia as the hateful version we are used to seeing. Why can’t consenting adults discuss this issue? Nobody wants to force anything on cis lesbians. It is absurd that the original meaning of cotton ceiling turned into some “wild trans women running around jumping on top of cis-lesbian conspiracy theory crap”. TERFs just saw this as a new weapon they can use and i totally agree what you said in your comment.

        Consensual intimacy between two adults is nobody else’s business. The fact that TERFs are always thinking about us sexually kind of creeps me out, actually. Who I love or who loves me is none of their fucking business.

        birthism, truthism, terfism…all conspiracy theories

      • I hear Cathy Brennan is available for children’s parties. And it never ceases to amaze the kiddies how many keep coming out of a VW micro bus.

      • @Dana

        See? SEE?!? You just admitted it! You want to rape lesbians! Unless lesbians agree to have sex with you they’re transphobic!!11111


        In an ableist society, people are going to pick up some biases towards what is and is not beautiful. To unquestioningly accept that you’re not affected by ableism when the thought of being with non able-bodied people is repulsive to you is to choose to remain blind and support ableism.

        In an racist society, people are going to pick up some biases towards what is and is not beautiful. To unquestioningly accept that you’re not affected by racism when the thought of being with non-WASP people is repulsive to you is to choose to remain blind and support racism.

        In an fatphobic society, people are going to pick up some biases towards what is and is not beautiful. To unquestioningly accept that you’re not affected by fatphobia when the thought of being with fat people is repulsive to you is to choose to remain blind and support fatphobia.

        Here’s an example of racism, fatphobia and slutshaming in action:

        The discussions that are happening around this asshat’s attitude (that these attitudes are harmful) *IS* the cotton ceiling. In a culture that shares his biased attitudes, how do those views affect the way society views these people and how does that affect how these people view themselves?

        Makes sense, right?

        Here, let me stuff the conversation that’s going on around this asshat into a TERF translator:

        ‘Non-WASPs want to rape lesbians!’
        ‘Fat people want to rape lesbians!’
        ‘HuffPo interviewed him so HuffPo supports raping lesbians!!!!’

        It says a lot that these assertions would be immediately dismissed if they were made about practically any other group of oppressed people. However, say it about trans people and everyone’s gonna line up to drink the TERF kool aid!

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  • The 7 most powerful women on this planet.