With Apologies to Radical Feminists
January 24, 2008
Radical Feminists on the Transgender v. HBS Controversy
January 29, 2008

Confessions of a Middle-aged Transinista

Somewhere along the line, I became a Transinista. I don’t know how it happened — there was no recruitment drive — I just found myself looking at a photo of myself dressed in combat boots, mirrored sunglasses, floppy angel wings trimmed with sequins and feathers, and sporting a lit stogie dangling out of my mouth. “Holy Jeebiz,” I muttered. “That’s got to be Photoshopped. And I don’t appreciate the moustache.”

Now, I think my credentials are pretty good. I’m not a litigation activist, my focus has been on community-building. Part of this has meant learning a lot of perspectives (our community is incredibly diverse), and then trying to teach T-folk what the other groups of T-folk are all about. And learning what I could about Intersex, crossdressers, gender renegades, drag performers, Two-Spirits, non-op transsexuals as well as those who clearly need the operation has introduced me to a wide experience of unique people who I respect. I never assume that my experience of being trans is the only valid one. It’s the approach which drove me to write “Transbigotry?

Maybe this is sort of the equivalent of the cartoon squirrel who scurries up with an olive branch, squeaking, “why can’t we all just get along?” before someone pulls out an M16 and perforates her, a note of satisfaction for the far right-wing and far left-wing types who resent “bleeding heart peacemakers.” But I’ve actually found diplomacy to be an approach that most people — both at the grassroots level and in the online world — to be usually quite open to. There are, however, always people of strong opinion who won’t be swayed:

This colours my point of view just as those who identify as some brand of trans come from an entirely different point of view. I see the world through the eyes of a feminist woman who has studied history and is also a pagan theologian. I live within the greater world where the dominate viewpoint of gender is a strictly bi-gendered one where most people’s understanding of gender is limited to there are men and women and if slightly more enlightened, some people are born intersexed and some are born transsexual but both these groups get put in either the male or female bin. — Cat Kisser, from “Not Ready For Prime Time, Or: How the TG Rights Movement Went Insane By Talking Only To Itself.”

One of the major schisms of the transgender community is the struggle between “Old Guard” transsexuals and the newer deconstructionist movement. This isn’t a comment on ageism — a trans teen can subscribe to Old Guard philosophy, while a senior might encourage and participate with the deconstructionists. But Old Guard philosophy tends to be prevalent among transfolk who have gone through their RLT and surgery prior to the 1990s (or outside the community, usually choosing from early on to shun it), and have had to fit the older Harry Benjamin Standards of Care quite rigidly in order to do so. And the fact is, I have no intention of taking sides: Old Guard is not “wrong,” it is a perfectly valid choice for those who feel the need to transition completely through the accepted process and live stealth. I can certainly understand the need to become “Mercedes the woman” to the outside world, and not “Mercedes the woman who used to be a man,” and am reserving my own right to one day slip into anonymity. I don’t vilify Old Guard thinking — I do, however, take exception to the idea that the Old Guard experience of transgender is the only valid one, just as I would take exception if that attitude were to come from deconstructionists. The argument, which first appeared at Trans-Feminist, continues:

While I have no problem with someone deconstructing their own gender, I have a major problem with someone deconstructing my own but this is exactly what the trans community demands. Think I’m full of it? Think again. Recently on the Bilerico Project a woman of transsexual history was told by a prominent transgender blogger and loud voice in TG activism that:

“You want to get technical [name]? In the strictest definition, you’re not female. The distinction between the “sexes” is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your “sex” isn’t based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn’t even an “organ.” An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your “vagina” isn’t a social construct, it’s a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands….”

I can’t speak for the beliefs and motives of the person who made the argument in question, but I would hope that it hinges around the phrase “in the strictest definition” used, possibly as a way to theorize based on general public perception, as if to say, “this is always something that people will be able to throw at us.” Either way, despite this, my experience of deconstructionism has been that it questions everything — rather than deciding it has all the answers, which are declared absolute and applied to all transsexual or transgender folk. On the other hand, there are some elements of the Old Guard entrenched in the desire to sever any and all association with non-transsexual, non-surgical transpeople. Although Cat doesn’t go to that extreme, she does say regarding the general term “transgender:”

I find being lumped under that umbrella extremely offensive as I do the equation of those with a sexual fetishistic driven disorder to equate themselves with those with a neurological birth condition.

One thing to be cautious of is painting large groups of people with a broad brush, such as when some of the commentators assert that non-op transsexuals can only be fetishists. Assuming this is just plain wrong. I’ll give one example, a Two-Spirit transwoman, a DES birth with evidence of being born intersex (a malformed ovary), who displays the primary characteristics of transsexual psychology, including an aversion to touching the existing body parts except when necessary, and who doesn’t mind that her Hormone Replacement Therapy has decimated her sex drive. Instead, she chooses to keep the parts and make what peace she can with them, because on a spiritual level, she wants to discover all that she can about being Two-Spirited (thinking that surgery brings her that much closer to single-spirited) and about being transgender. She also feels that there is a higher purpose for having been born as she is, and feels that she should explore it. She is reserving the right to decide to have GRS at a later date, and suspects that someday she will.

Absurd? Not at all. I am talking about myself. I am of an age and background where the Old Guard approach would probably suit me best, but I choose to know more about “the dark side,” the deconstructionism, before I decide where I belong. And despite the author’s contention that the deconstructionists have subverted the transgender community, I too have faced exclusion for my decision. However, one thing I have learned from being in that middle is that the two sides are not incompatible.

Much of these arguments boil down to the need to define oneself, and to differentiate oneself from the impressions given by other segments of the transgender community. However, it is one thing to define oneself, and it is entirely another to do so at another part of the community’s expense, wholesale.

She goes on to insist that:

What has happened is that actual civil rights that in a practical sense would cover transgenders as well as people of transsexual history and those in transsexual transition have taken a back seat to the agenda of deconstruction of gender for all.

Again, I don’t see this. ENDA, a piece of legislation meant to protect GLBT folk from employment discrimination, from which transgender folks were later dropped, was the number one battle for the U.S. transgender community in 2007. Either way, I don’t see that deconstructive philosophy has taken over, nor do I see where advocates suddenly became guerillas staging a bloody palace coup.

Hm. That calls for another cigar.

Further discussion following the article reveals a number of other attitudes from the Old Guard and anti-trans Intersex sort, such as:

If you have a penis use the boys room and don’t intrude upon the spaces that offer privacy to those with vagina’s. — comment by Diane.

Of course, doing so would get many MTFs dismembered and impaled on stakes as a warning to others. For some of the Old Guard, this appears to be inconsequential to them. (To be fair, the original author did not say this, although she does condemn anyone “talking about the ‘rights’ of people with penises to enter women’s space”) I wonder: if I lined up three photos of transsexuals, one post-op, would you be able to tell me which one would be “entitled” to use the ladies’ room? Too bad for those TS folk who are nearing eligibility for surgery, can’t afford it or are precluded from it for health reasons. I guess in the meantime, the other option is to hold their pee until they get home — not an easy task for someone in the middle of an eight-hour shift of work.

And one of the participants in the discussion is Nick K.D. Chaleunphone, known for his predominantly pro-intersex and anti-transgender blog, The Kallmann’s Syndrome Life, where he has quizzically linked to both “Not Ready For Prime Time…” (with the divisive tone of it), and then also my “Transbigotry?” (which opposes divisiveness), saying of each that they “finally hit the nail [on the head.]” The latter link may, of course, disappear following the debut of this post.

That’s the same issue we have within the intersex community. Those who stay intersex and don’t transition are fine and okay. They are content with where they are. It’s the ones that do transition and who want call themselves intersex trans after they transition is what bothers me and irks me.

Nick also asserts that the intersex community is falling victim to a transgender take-over attempt, and that the two should not be associated. But I think that this results from some confusion in perspective. I’ve continually said that I believe that transgender will one day be a smaller aspect of the larger concept of intersex. With the provocative research found regarding Endocrine Disrupting Chemicals (EDCs, including DES), genetic studies like the recent one from UCLA, and demonstrations of how the minds of transgender people are most often in line far more with the minds of the gender to which they identify, I do believe that someday transgender will be found to have largely biological origins, rather than psychological ones — even in the seeming “fringe” folk, where their transgender need is so far less intense that it becomes explored in lesser, part-time and even sexual ways. Someday, intersex will annex that, much to Nick’s chagrin. It will also encompass a significant number of intersex people who were lucky enough to be assigned at birth to the gender with which they identify, and therefore not understand the transgender experience, not having experienced it. To them, I suppose, we’ll always be the embarrassing sister or brother that they would rather not have anyone know is part of their family.

Returning to the article, though, it is important to note that Cat Kisser says:

The issue has always been the same one, a total lack of respect for women of transsexual history by the TG community that drives them out viciously then claims to speak for them.

and:

Literally the most horrible abuses and transphobic attacks I have suffered since I first transitioned all almost exclusively from the TG community.

One thing to remember is that feelings of this intensity don’t spontaneously ignite in a vacuum, although once ignited, they can be fueled by as many misinterpretations as face-value experiences. When she says she’s experienced discrimination from the deconstructionists, I don’t doubt it. And it was horrible when the lesbian community of the politically-correct ‘80s jettisoned everyone who fit the “butch” or “femme” stereotype because they were said to propagate bad clichés about lesbians – especially because many of those “butch / femme” people numbered in the majority of lesbians who were first to come out and worked hard for the community, at a time when there was not a lot of support. It will be no less reprehensible if deconstructionists do this to Old Guard transfolk. But the challenge to both the Old Guard and the deconstructionists is to meet halfway, willing to choose to show mutual respect, even if they don’t understand or agree with each other. I’d hope that Old Guard and deconstructionists could somehow arrive at this, rather than what we’re seeing here.

———————————————-

Something that Transbigotry?and this post do is point out divisive problems faced by the vast transgender community. They do not yet, however, provide solutions. I suspect that any solution will need to follow this course:

  • Awareness.
  • A resolve to mutually respect each other, despite all differences, and despite the hurts that have gone on before.
  • A vow to work earnestly to achieve the needs of all trans elements, and while doing so, attempt to acquire as deep an understanding of them as possible.
  • It is, of course, one’s prerogative to disagree at times. It is not, though, in the best interest of the community to attempt to detonate another’s foundations or sling around slander, hate or disrespect in the process.

If my convictions are correct, these points need to filter through the community at every level, from the national organizations down to the local support groups, in order to — at the very least — prevent any further bitterness like we see here… or at the very most, develop some real unity and change. They need to be discussed earnestly, rather than just given lip service, and probably reiterated from time to time. If the greater GLBT community can get behind transfolk in the form of UnitedENDA via a choice to respect and try to understand a community notably different (homosexuality is about sexual orientation and transgender is about gender identity… one does not dictate the other), then why can’t the transgender community pull itself together?

Perhaps that is the community’s challenge for 2008.

There goes Mercedes, again, running around with squeaky voice, saying, “why can’t we all just get along?”

I am waiting for the bullets.

114 Comments

  1. Nick says:

    Oh wow, Look at how big you all talk about about unity and community, but when it comes to trashing people like a peiece of shit and a dog. It just goes to show how so much schism and fracturing it is between intersex and transgender. It’s no wonder no one wants unity and community with people who constantly fight over who’s right, who’s wrong and who’s a bigot. It’s that reason why the LGB community threw the trans community off the stage.

    If you all weren’t so self absorbing, self center and so delusional, people would then give a hoot about you, but instead, people don’t give a damn anymore about you because of all the infighting and all this childish crap.

    It’s a shame that you all talk big about wanting an open dialog and openess about your transgender, but when you all start infighting all over about everyones views and disagreements, it’s no wonder why that society as a whole view transgender as some warped out mentally delusional group.

    I believe that in the end, the trans community will never grow up because of all this infighting and all this childish crap and this infighting will be the result of why the trans community became so fractured and why it’s everyone for themselves.

  2. Nick says:

    Oh wow, Look at how big you all talk about about unity and community, but when it comes to trashing people like a peiece of shit and a dog. It just goes to show how so much schism and fracturing it is between intersex and transgender. It’s no wonder no one wants unity and community with people who constantly fight over who’s right, who’s wrong and who’s a bigot. It’s that reason why the LGB community threw the trans community off the stage.

    If you all weren’t so self absorbing, self center and so delusional, people would then give a hoot about you, but instead, people don’t give a damn anymore about you because of all the infighting and all this childish crap.

    It’s a shame that you all talk big about wanting an open dialog and openess about your transgender, but when you all start infighting all over about everyones views and disagreements, it’s no wonder why that society as a whole view transgender as some warped out mentally delusional group.

    I believe that in the end, the trans community will never grow up because of all this infighting and all this childish crap and this infighting will be the result of why the trans community became so fractured and why it’s everyone for themselves.

  3. Laura_Mac says:

    Very much so and I take full responsibility in feeding the troll.

  4. Val says:

    Oh look. More dispatches from Bizarro World.

  5. Danae L. M. says:

    Impressive start – you know, you don’t come off in the best of lights in this thread.
    Also, while I may have nothing against dyslexia per se (duh, I am, I spent most of high school working on a handwriting that would hide it well – it’s one of those things that run in my family) – it can be helped. That might already help you seem a little bit more rational.

  6. Nick says:

    Except that the old guard Knows the differences and respect those differences which is what the new breed lacks. At least the old guard knows who’s who and respects the border that separates trans and intersex.

  7. Val says:

    By the way, since comments to this entry have been so thoroughly hijacked – again – by the Fruitbat Brigade – allow me to extend my appreciation to the original author, whose compassion and intelligence have gone almost entirely without notice.

    Thank you, Mercedes, and well done. You’re an unfortunately rare breed in this zoo.

  8. Val says:

    By the way, since comments to this entry have been so thoroughly hijacked – again – by the Fruitbat Brigade – allow me to extend my appreciation to the original author, whose compassion and intelligence have gone almost entirely without notice.

    Thank you, Mercedes, and well done. You’re an unfortunately rare breed in this zoo.

  9. Val says:

    Except the “old guard” doesn’t call themselves “transgender”. They call themselves transsexual… the very thing you claim to be against.

    Somewhere along the line, you got turned completely around.

  10. Nick says:

    Also, since Laura McIntyre like to slander people by making slander blogs about them or me, I have done the same such as
    http://lauramcintyreisanidiot.blogspot.com/

    • Sue says:

      What WE call Old School
      is how we dealt with the real world back before most of those so called activists were even thinking of what it is to be TG or TS.

      Since most of you were ether not borne or still in the closet back in the early 80’s you would know what old school is.

      Have a nice day.
      treat your elders with respect
      we blazed the trail for you.

      Sue

  11. Nick says:

    This is why Laura_mac would rather attack and slander someone than talk like a normal human being. He simply attacks and slanders people who don’t agree with him. He simply is a narcissistic transsexual where it’s all about him and him only. His mind is filled with him and only him. He doesn’t like disagreements and frankly, He’s very self centered.

    He’s very delusional and frankly very mentally retarded that he can drive me away with his so called slanderous blog about me. In fact who would rather believe a slanderous transsexual like Laura_mac. His credibility within the intersex community is none after being outed as a transsexual.

    It’s no wonder that the intersex communities drove Laura_mac away because Laura_mac is a FRAUD. A very self centered transsexual who wants nothing more than to drive out anyone who doesn’t agree with him. He’s a pathological liar and a very deceiving and self centered person. In fact, when they found out that he wasn’t intersex at all and he was found to be a transsexual, they drove him out of all intersex groups and outed him as a transsexual liar.

    That to me is that Laura_mac is a Pathological Liar and a Narcissistic transsexual and you can never trust what ever he writes on any post or blog.

  12. Laura_Mac says:

    >It’s easy for you to lie to people about being intersex but when you can’t even tell your own mother and father the truth that your a transsexual.

    They already know smart guy.

    I think everything that you want to know nick is here.
    http://ncisidiot.blogspot.com/2008/01/can-you-say-waaaa-i-knew-you-could-nick.html

  13. Nick says:

    Simple, I can understand that the old guard of the transgender knows full well the difference between intersex and transgender. The old guard knows the boundaries and knows who’s intersex and who’s transgender.

    Unlike the new breed of the transgender community which most of you are brought up on, is more of a deconstructing of all genders and blurring the lines of all genders and that includes the intersex as well.

    I fully understand the old guard of the transgender and that includes the classic transgender and classic intersex, than i do with the new breed, which creates confusion and schism.

    Yes, HBS is an intersex condition, though more of a neurological side than a genetic DNA side.

  14. Nick says:

    I think what’s more insulting is when you go around intersex groups proclaiming that your intersex when we outed out that your not intersex at all and your more of a transsexual. You knew full well that your weren’t part of the intersex community in the first place and somehow in your innate brain that you have a needs and wants issue.

    Laura, ur kind wants nothing more than to use the intersex to their advantage and then toss us intersex like a used up can of soda after you get done using and abusing the intersex. So for you, you used the intersex groups and intersex label as an excuse or shield for why your a transsexual.

    Admit it, it’s easy to explain society about intersex than it is about transgender or transsexual. It’s easy for society to understand intersex than they do about the transgender community.

    It’s easy for you to lie to people about being intersex but when you can’t even tell your own mother and father the truth that your a transsexual.

  15. Val says:

    > That to me is BS because you can’t claim intersex and transsexual at the same time

    And I’m still trying to figure out how you can say that, and at the same time be so involved with the HBS loonies.

  16. Val says:

    >It’s not Stassa, It’s Laura_mac.

    Except that’s not what you said:

    >Like you said, Stassa are one of those are the ones who i see the intersex community as a scape goat for their own transvestite, she-male lifestyle and needs.

    You really do seem to have just about everything wrong.

  17. Laura_Mac says:

    I don’t hang around OII, and I haven’t been an active poster on xxytalk since I was shown not to have klinefelters.

    Of course you neglect to mention that you troll xxytalk constantly and even represent yourself as having klinefelters.

    Transsexual “lifestyle?” First off do you have any idea what my daily life is like? Answer = no. Second of all that is about the most insulting thing I think you have ever said.

  18. Nick says:

    Then how come your float around in intersex groups such as OII,and XXYTALK. When you say your not intersex, but you float around in intersex groups anyway, that pretty much seems to me that you are floating around intersex groups and interloping with the intersex when your squarely not intersex at all. We all know your using the intersex groups as a shield for your transsexual lifestyle.

  19. Laura_Mac says:

    I don’t claim intersex, never have.

  20. Nick says:

    It’s not Stassa, It’s Laura_mac. Laura_mac is one of those MTF transsexuals who want to claim intersex all while being transsexual at the same time.

    That to me is BS because you can’t claim intersex and transsexual at the same time and after transition you can’t reclaim intersex as well.

    No, I just believe that Intersex’s orginal community roots were about people born with genetic DNA conditions and those who had medical records withheld from them and had medical information hid from them.

  21. Felix says:

    Why would I need an excuse for indulging a fetish? 🙂

  22. Felix says:

    Why would I need an excuse for indulging a fetish? 🙂

  23. Sue says:

    “that they can’t even find in themselves.

    Granted, some (MTF) transgender-identified people do pop up now and again, insisting that they’re intersex because their dick hangs crooked or they got mantits and getting all fluttery about their newly appropriated “truth” (”oh! it all makes sense now!” they gleefully titter). But most of the sensible people whack them soundly with sticks when it occurs and get back to the business of just trying to live as we are, without casting about for excuses.”

    very inclusive and nonthreatening statement.
    Pillar of the community.

    Sue

  24. Val says:

    Make an effort to make sense. Come on… shake off that weird fugue that you seem to be stuck in.

    Show one instance where Stassa has ever laid any claim at all to intersex.

    You can’t, of course, because she hasn’t.

    What is with you, Nick? Have you been taken over by pod people or something?

  25. Val says:

    Make an effort to make sense. Come on… shake off that weird fugue that you seem to be stuck in.

    Show one instance where Stassa has ever laid any claim at all to intersex.

    You can’t, of course, because she hasn’t.

    What is with you, Nick? Have you been taken over by pod people or something?

  26. Nick says:

    Duh… I don’t write well and I do have a hard time transferring what I say into typed word.

    The same that Luara_mac is doing right now, He’s mad because he doesn’t like dissent at all. He doesn’t like the fact that I’m against intersex that do transition for personal reasons unlike those who were forced as kids against their will.

  27. Stassa says:

    Stassa, I get it but u don’t. Though should i bring up the other blogs as well.

    Yeah, dude, let’s bring up “the other blogs”

    Here’s your comment from the Battle of Transfeminist (hope I got the blockquotes right):

    “Like you said, Stassa are one of those are the ones who i see the intersex community as a scape goat for their own transvestite, she-male lifestyle and needs. They are the ones who seem to use the intersex name to excuse their behavior or to run and hide from their delusional behavior.”

    I know a few places where Stassa or anyone can try the HBS thing on the intersex community, OII, and ISNA. They sure would have a go at it and try to dissect the HBS thing.

    –> Nick, you are dyslexic.

    –> I am not cussing at you, dyslexia is OK, like intersex.

    –> Dyslexia makes it hard for you to write well.

    –> Dyslexia makes it hard for you to read well.

    –> Because you can’t read well you don’t get what we are saying.

    –> Because you can’t write well we don’t get what you are saying.

    –> No hard feelngs from me.

    –> But you call people delusional and that makes them mad.

    –> And you call them fetish and that makes them mad too.

    –> OK buddy? Cool?

  28. Val says:

    Wow. The stupid hurts.

  29. Laura_Mac says:

    I would like to apologize for bringing this kind of off topic argument here, I won’t continue in this banter here and will move it to my blog.

  30. Nick says:

    See, laura_mac is not even intersex at all. You try asking him about his intersex status and i would bet that he’s not even going to tell at all. He’s more going to dodge the issue and won’t even tell you when prodded about it.

    See, he admits that he’s an MTF transsexual and he admits that he’s using the intersex label as an excuse to explain his transsexuality. Laura Mac also admits to interloping with the intersex as a way to shield his transsexual status. The one thing Laura_mac won’t tell you is that what’s his intersex medical condition, where he got diagnosed as an intersex and what’s the name of the doctor that diagnosed him as an intersex.

    I do not recognize Laura_mac as a female because he’s not even close to being considered a true female and he’s more of a transsexual intersex loper. He’s more of a transsexual who will claim everything under the sun including intersex and HBS just to gain into the intersex community and gain the intersex protection.

    I would watch out, what ever Laura_mac says because Laura_mac is taught by the new breed of transgender activist who spew the deconstructionist agenda. He is one of those who would deny others while validating his own and his own agenda. His words can not be trusted he will be very manipulative and very secretive when you try and confront him about his so called intersex condition.

  31. Nick says:

    See, laura_mac is not even intersex at all. You try asking him about his intersex status and i would bet that he’s not even going to tell at all. He’s more going to dodge the issue and won’t even tell you when prodded about it.

    See, he admits that he’s an MTF transsexual and he admits that he’s using the intersex label as an excuse to explain his transsexuality. Laura Mac also admits to interloping with the intersex as a way to shield his transsexual status. The one thing Laura_mac won’t tell you is that what’s his intersex medical condition, where he got diagnosed as an intersex and what’s the name of the doctor that diagnosed him as an intersex.

    I do not recognize Laura_mac as a female because he’s not even close to being considered a true female and he’s more of a transsexual intersex loper. He’s more of a transsexual who will claim everything under the sun including intersex and HBS just to gain into the intersex community and gain the intersex protection.

    I would watch out, what ever Laura_mac says because Laura_mac is taught by the new breed of transgender activist who spew the deconstructionist agenda. He is one of those who would deny others while validating his own and his own agenda. His words can not be trusted he will be very manipulative and very secretive when you try and confront him about his so called intersex condition.

  32. Nick says:

    Sorta like you Laura who is denying the rights of intersex to self determine and the right to whether they want to transition or not. Even more worse is denying anyone that doesn’t want to transition at all even when they are happy at being intersex and happy at where they are.

    As you see, Laura_mac is more about denying those who don’t transition while at the same time validating his and his kind of intersex transsexuals that do transition. So he’s more of of deconstructionist and more of a transsexual who interlopes within the intersex community,

    We all know that Laura_Mac is an intersex transsexual. Laura_Mac is not even a real woman at all. He’s more of a transsexual male who fetish about being intersex and is more about using the intersex label as an excuse for his transsexual behavior and transition.

    Just ask Laura-Mac about his intersex status and his so called intersex medical condition. I would pretty much bet he would dodge that question and come up with so many lies that it would make your head spin.

  33. Nick says:

    Sorta like you Laura who is denying the rights of intersex to self determine and the right to whether they want to transition or not. Even more worse is denying anyone that doesn’t want to transition at all even when they are happy at being intersex and happy at where they are.

    As you see, Laura_mac is more about denying those who don’t transition while at the same time validating his and his kind of intersex transsexuals that do transition. So he’s more of of deconstructionist and more of a transsexual who interlopes within the intersex community,

    We all know that Laura_Mac is an intersex transsexual. Laura_Mac is not even a real woman at all. He’s more of a transsexual male who fetish about being intersex and is more about using the intersex label as an excuse for his transsexual behavior and transition.

    Just ask Laura-Mac about his intersex status and his so called intersex medical condition. I would pretty much bet he would dodge that question and come up with so many lies that it would make your head spin.

  34. Laura_Mac says:

    http://kallmanns-syndrome.blogspot.com/2008/01/intersex-bigots.html

    That is what Nick does when he doesn’t get his way…throw a temper tantrum.

  35. Laura_Mac says:

    http://kallmanns-syndrome.blogspot.com/2008/01/intersex-bigots.html

    That is what Nick does when he doesn’t get his way…throw a temper tantrum.

  36. Laura_Mac says:

    Val, Nick likes Cat Kisser

    http://kallmanns-syndrome.blogspot.com/2008/01/real-transbigotry.html

    Nick is one of the biggest bigots out there, basically he denies anyones transsexual/transgender whatever you want to call it feelings unless you are diagnosed with an intersex condition in which case you are free to do as you please.

  37. Laura_Mac says:

    Might as well add that I am a mtf transsexual and Nick has used the correct pronouns all of 3 times in any conversation i’ve had with him.

  38. Val says:

    > The ones that see intersex as the holy grail are those that are intersex transsexuals.

    Have you read the manifestos of the HBS apologists, or even of Cat Kisser, who repeatedly asserts her own intersex condition?

    You’ve got the right idea, but entirely the wrong people.

  39. Laura_Mac says:

    I would like to thank Nick for his obviously well thought out reply which I would hope illustrates my point of his mental issues.

  40. Nick says:

    Like Laura here, he’s one of those intersex transsexuals who want to claim intersex while being transsexual at the same time. laura is one of those deconstructonist who wants to blur the lines between what’s transgender and what’s intersex.

    He has made it known to attack anyone that doesn’t agree or support his form of logic which is that any intersex that takes HRT is transitioning and that anyone who’s against him or his warped transgender mindset is a trans phobic.

    Laura is not even intersex at all and doesn’t even want to say what medical condition he has. He’s more of a transsexual intersex wannabe. Quite frankly, *yawn” I grow tired of
    such attacks from the likes of Laura.

    The true bigotry is Laura who can’t take dissent and would rather personally attack anyone he finds that is a bigot and disagrees with him.

  41. Val, The ones that see intersex as the holy grail are those that are intersex transsexuals. They are the ones that see intersex as a holy grail and excuse to explain away why they use intersex as an excuse for their transsexual behavior.

    Stassa, I get it but u don’t. Though should i bring up the other blogs as well.

  42. Val, The ones that see intersex as the holy grail are those that are intersex transsexuals. They are the ones that see intersex as a holy grail and excuse to explain away why they use intersex as an excuse for their transsexual behavior.

    Stassa, I get it but u don’t. Though should i bring up the other blogs as well.

  43. Val, The ones that see intersex as the holy grail are those that are intersex transsexuals. They are the ones that see intersex as a holy grail and excuse to explain away why they use intersex as an excuse for their transsexual behavior.

    Stassa, I get it but u don’t. Though should i bring up the other blogs as well.

  44. Laura_Mac says:

    Honestly Nick is about the last person who should be talking about transgender/intersex contention. The guy has mental issues and I wish he’d get some help. He agreed to delete his postings that concerned transgender and while he did for anything tagged with that there are still plenty of examples of his bigotry.

    http://kallmanns-syndrome.blogspot.com/
    http://nicksnospinzone.blogspot.com/

    Me and a friend have started cataloging and “deconstructing” his ramblings over here.

    http://ncisidiot.blogspot.com/

  45. Laura_Mac says:

    Honestly Nick is about the last person who should be talking about transgender/intersex contention. The guy has mental issues and I wish he’d get some help. He agreed to delete his postings that concerned transgender and while he did for anything tagged with that there are still plenty of examples of his bigotry.

    http://kallmanns-syndrome.blogspot.com/
    http://nicksnospinzone.blogspot.com/

    Me and a friend have started cataloging and “deconstructing” his ramblings over here.

    http://ncisidiot.blogspot.com/

  46. Stassa says:

    Nah. He doesn’t get it.

    Nick, do you think I’m saying i’m intersex, or what?

  47. Stassa says:

    Nah. He doesn’t get it.

    Nick, do you think I’m saying i’m intersex, or what?

  48. Val says:

    > See, most transsexuals see intersex has the holy grail

    Some do. Certainly the most vocal fundamentalists. But “most”, I think, do not.

    And this is why I, and most sensible people I know, maintain a respectful distance from intersex issues, speaking about them occasionally, within the limited scope of our expertise, but never speaking for them, much less as them.

  49. Val says:

    > See, most transsexuals see intersex has the holy grail

    Some do. Certainly the most vocal fundamentalists. But “most”, I think, do not.

    And this is why I, and most sensible people I know, maintain a respectful distance from intersex issues, speaking about them occasionally, within the limited scope of our expertise, but never speaking for them, much less as them.

  50. Nick says:

    Well for me, the ones that do irk me is the intersex transsexuals who transition and still insist on keeping the intersex label long after they transition as a transsexual. They still want to insist on being called both at the same time.

    See, most transsexuals see intersex has the holy grail and try using intersex label as an excuse for their behavior, fetish and lifestyle while remaining transsexual. They use the intersex label as an excuse to explain why they do this and that.

    True Intersex like me, mostly don’t want to transition. Were mostly content with were we are. Never wanting SRS because the belief, that it’s considered genital mutilation on the body and mostly are against it.

    Intersex is defined by genetic DNA medical conditions such as Kallmann’s, Klinefeltners, AIS, PAIS, CAIS, CAH and XXY, XYY

  51. Nick says:

    Well for me, the ones that do irk me is the intersex transsexuals who transition and still insist on keeping the intersex label long after they transition as a transsexual. They still want to insist on being called both at the same time.

    See, most transsexuals see intersex has the holy grail and try using intersex label as an excuse for their behavior, fetish and lifestyle while remaining transsexual. They use the intersex label as an excuse to explain why they do this and that.

    True Intersex like me, mostly don’t want to transition. Were mostly content with were we are. Never wanting SRS because the belief, that it’s considered genital mutilation on the body and mostly are against it.

    Intersex is defined by genetic DNA medical conditions such as Kallmann’s, Klinefeltners, AIS, PAIS, CAIS, CAH and XXY, XYY

  52. Val says:

    > you have deconstructionist who are trying to group the intersex with the transgender

    Um. No.

    The ones who are dedicated to the view that transwhatever is an intersex condition are the HBS fundamentalists and other self-described “true transsexuals”, for whom the intersex condition is The Big Validation that they can’t even find in themselves.

    Granted, some (MTF) transgender-identified people do pop up now and again, insisting that they’re intersex because their dick hangs crooked or they got mantits and getting all fluttery about their newly appropriated “truth” (“oh! it all makes sense now!” they gleefully titter). But most of the sensible people whack them soundly with sticks when it occurs and get back to the business of just trying to live as we are, without casting about for excuses.

  53. Val says:

    > you have deconstructionist who are trying to group the intersex with the transgender

    Um. No.

    The ones who are dedicated to the view that transwhatever is an intersex condition are the HBS fundamentalists and other self-described “true transsexuals”, for whom the intersex condition is The Big Validation that they can’t even find in themselves.

    Granted, some (MTF) transgender-identified people do pop up now and again, insisting that they’re intersex because their dick hangs crooked or they got mantits and getting all fluttery about their newly appropriated “truth” (“oh! it all makes sense now!” they gleefully titter). But most of the sensible people whack them soundly with sticks when it occurs and get back to the business of just trying to live as we are, without casting about for excuses.

  54. Stassa says:

    Pssst, Nick. Have you figured out yet, which of the posters on that transfeminist.com post is HBS and which is trying to take over intersex?

  55. Nick says:

    I have to agree, even the old guard of the transgender community knows full well, the difference between what’s intersex and what’s transgender. Right now, you have deconstructionist who are trying to group the intersex with the transgender and redefine gender based on their view.

    As an intersex, I don’t like being grouped under the transgender umbrella at all.Intersex has no commonality to the transgender and I do believe that one day that intersex will be bigger than the transgender community.

  56. Nick says:

    I have to agree, even the old guard of the transgender community knows full well, the difference between what’s intersex and what’s transgender. Right now, you have deconstructionist who are trying to group the intersex with the transgender and redefine gender based on their view.

    As an intersex, I don’t like being grouped under the transgender umbrella at all.Intersex has no commonality to the transgender and I do believe that one day that intersex will be bigger than the transgender community.

  57. Stassa says:

    (sorry, wrong nesting again… that was adressed to Dame Sue Robins)

  58. Stassa says:

    (sorry, wrong nesting again… that was adressed to Dame Sue Robins)

  59. Stassa says:

    Yeah? You’re not paying attention are you?

    I’m Greek. I didn’t grow up in upstate New York. Back where I come from, we didn’t even have a word for “transsexual” that didn’t mean “she-male whore”. A word? What am I saying- there wasn’t even the concept of transition, just plying the trade and going after the boys. “Old Skewl” indeed! In my neck of the woods the word “transsexual” was first used publicly in 1997. To you it’s a medical condition that justifies your transition to the prudes- to me it’s something my mother can tell herself, that sounds milder than “my son’s a transvestite hooker.” And “transgendered”? There ain’t no such word in Greek.

    You? You blazed trails? Well, I dug them with my nails. Just by not being on the streets, by studying abroad, like all the decent kids, I’m opening up a hundred highways for the girls that will follow me, to think about shit and know what they can choose to do with their lives- if they want to.

    You wanna pull rank? On me? Pull the other one- it’s got belles on.

  60. Stassa says:

    Yeah? You’re not paying attention are you?

    I’m Greek. I didn’t grow up in upstate New York. Back where I come from, we didn’t even have a word for “transsexual” that didn’t mean “she-male whore”. A word? What am I saying- there wasn’t even the concept of transition, just plying the trade and going after the boys. “Old Skewl” indeed! In my neck of the woods the word “transsexual” was first used publicly in 1997. To you it’s a medical condition that justifies your transition to the prudes- to me it’s something my mother can tell herself, that sounds milder than “my son’s a transvestite hooker.” And “transgendered”? There ain’t no such word in Greek.

    You? You blazed trails? Well, I dug them with my nails. Just by not being on the streets, by studying abroad, like all the decent kids, I’m opening up a hundred highways for the girls that will follow me, to think about shit and know what they can choose to do with their lives- if they want to.

    You wanna pull rank? On me? Pull the other one- it’s got belles on.

  61. Stassa says:

    No, wait. I wasn’t there. I only moved here couplea years ago. I can’t take credit for all that!

    But, I do accept credit for the wider European enlightened attitude. I’m proud to be a European Citizen- and I don’t think anyone who belongs to any minority can afford to be anti-European.

  62. Stassa says:

    No, wait. I wasn’t there. I only moved here couplea years ago. I can’t take credit for all that!

    But, I do accept credit for the wider European enlightened attitude. I’m proud to be a European Citizen- and I don’t think anyone who belongs to any minority can afford to be anti-European.

  63. Stassa says:

    No, wait. I wasn’t there. I only moved here couplea years ago. I can’t take credit for all that!

    But, I do accept credit for the wider European enlightened attitude. I’m proud to be a European Citizen- and I don’t think anyone who belongs to any minority can afford to be anti-European.

  64. Felix says:

    Hey, Stassa – well said! I’m one of the people who helped get UK law through, too. We rock!! 🙂

  65. Felix says:

    Hey, Stassa – well said! I’m one of the people who helped get UK law through, too. We rock!! 🙂

  66. Stassa says:

    What you call “Old School” ideas, only exist in the minds of a very specific group of people in a very specific part of the world. That’s why it has been so easy to police it, and gather all the “troops” under one banner, like HBS recently and True Transsexual™ before that. I remember those folks from ’97, when I first started connecting to the internet. My impression then and my impression now was “what a bunch of clowns”. In ten years they haven’t managed to make any more sense.

    What they say and stand for, has never resonated with anybody else but their paleolithic white, middle-class, USA-centric view of the world and maybe a few people in the rest of the commonwealth. Nobody, in the whole rest of the world thinks that there is some kind of “true” transsexuality, that can only exist in certain people and must be expressed in specific ways -much less, have a special name.

    Nobody else even recognises all the transgendered denominations you people keep spinning out of your bottoms. To give you an example, outside the ‘net I first came upon the concept of different “TG character classes”, when I watched “To Wong foo…”. In Greece, where I come from, for ages everybody was known as “travesti” and that was it. In Thailand it was “kathoey”, in Spain and Latin America “travesti”, in France “travelot” and so on (spot the pattern?) Then everybody started using “transsexual” because it sounded more polite (or boring) and sidestepped the sex-work connotations. So now “transsexual” or “transgendered” are used as international terms- but, internationally, they mean the same thing. In every other bit of the world, everybody has managed to fit snugly under one label, fits all. Why do you people over there need to splice and dice yourselves to pieces? And how come the labels with the strictest specifications look like private clubs for members only?

    Yeah, well, guess why. ‘Cause it’s all in your mind and it’s all about hierarchy. And at this point I’m even talking about the progressive gender theorists. That’s your fault too folks. You can’t even bring yourselves to use the same word for everyone, you’re so hung up with patrolling your precious identities. You draw so many lines in the sand it’s like gender sudoku- and then you’re surprised when fruit like the HBS people sprout up and fall on your head. You shouldn’t – you called for it. In that sense, I at least consider the HBS dingbats to be the summary of what it means to be transsexual in the USA.

    As about the absurd regressionism the HBS people stand for, you know, the stuff about employment rights and peeing protocol, I think this bit from Christine Burns on a thread in queerty, sums it up best:

    So Susan Stanton doesn’t think the US is “ready” for trans rights? Here are a few dates and facts about quaint old-fashioned Britain that are maybe worth keeping in mind…
    Since 1996 European Community law has upheld the employment rights of transsexual people.
    Since April 1999 it has been unlawful in Britain for anyone to discriminate against a transsexual person in employment. This functional equivalent of ENDA passed into law without a murmur.
    In 2004 Parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act; giving unambiguous legal recognition to transsexual people even if, in some cases, they are unable to have genital reassignment surgery. The Act passed with a massive Parliamentary majority. Since then several thousand applications have been processed without event.
    Last month UK law was further updated to outlaw discrimination against transsexual people in the supply of goods and services.
    I know these facts well because, as a campaigner, I worked closely on them all. In 2005 my colleagues and I were awarded national honours in respect for that work.
    So now please stop accepting the terms of the debate that suggest that America is somehow “not ready” for a fraction of the same. So long as you remain bogged down in questionning whether it is even right to have equality you won’t begin to achieve it.

    So, if you want an argument, backed by the experience of a whole society of, let’s face it, not the most liberal people in the whole world (quite the bloody contrary!) you can point to the sky over Europe: it’s still up there.

  67. Stassa says:

    What you call “Old School” ideas, only exist in the minds of a very specific group of people in a very specific part of the world. That’s why it has been so easy to police it, and gather all the “troops” under one banner, like HBS recently and True Transsexual™ before that. I remember those folks from ’97, when I first started connecting to the internet. My impression then and my impression now was “what a bunch of clowns”. In ten years they haven’t managed to make any more sense.

    What they say and stand for, has never resonated with anybody else but their paleolithic white, middle-class, USA-centric view of the world and maybe a few people in the rest of the commonwealth. Nobody, in the whole rest of the world thinks that there is some kind of “true” transsexuality, that can only exist in certain people and must be expressed in specific ways -much less, have a special name.

    Nobody else even recognises all the transgendered denominations you people keep spinning out of your bottoms. To give you an example, outside the ‘net I first came upon the concept of different “TG character classes”, when I watched “To Wong foo…”. In Greece, where I come from, for ages everybody was known as “travesti” and that was it. In Thailand it was “kathoey”, in Spain and Latin America “travesti”, in France “travelot” and so on (spot the pattern?) Then everybody started using “transsexual” because it sounded more polite (or boring) and sidestepped the sex-work connotations. So now “transsexual” or “transgendered” are used as international terms- but, internationally, they mean the same thing. In every other bit of the world, everybody has managed to fit snugly under one label, fits all. Why do you people over there need to splice and dice yourselves to pieces? And how come the labels with the strictest specifications look like private clubs for members only?

    Yeah, well, guess why. ‘Cause it’s all in your mind and it’s all about hierarchy. And at this point I’m even talking about the progressive gender theorists. That’s your fault too folks. You can’t even bring yourselves to use the same word for everyone, you’re so hung up with patrolling your precious identities. You draw so many lines in the sand it’s like gender sudoku- and then you’re surprised when fruit like the HBS people sprout up and fall on your head. You shouldn’t – you called for it. In that sense, I at least consider the HBS dingbats to be the summary of what it means to be transsexual in the USA.

    As about the absurd regressionism the HBS people stand for, you know, the stuff about employment rights and peeing protocol, I think this bit from Christine Burns on a thread in queerty, sums it up best:

    So Susan Stanton doesn’t think the US is “ready” for trans rights? Here are a few dates and facts about quaint old-fashioned Britain that are maybe worth keeping in mind…
    Since 1996 European Community law has upheld the employment rights of transsexual people.
    Since April 1999 it has been unlawful in Britain for anyone to discriminate against a transsexual person in employment. This functional equivalent of ENDA passed into law without a murmur.
    In 2004 Parliament passed the Gender Recognition Act; giving unambiguous legal recognition to transsexual people even if, in some cases, they are unable to have genital reassignment surgery. The Act passed with a massive Parliamentary majority. Since then several thousand applications have been processed without event.
    Last month UK law was further updated to outlaw discrimination against transsexual people in the supply of goods and services.
    I know these facts well because, as a campaigner, I worked closely on them all. In 2005 my colleagues and I were awarded national honours in respect for that work.
    So now please stop accepting the terms of the debate that suggest that America is somehow “not ready” for a fraction of the same. So long as you remain bogged down in questionning whether it is even right to have equality you won’t begin to achieve it.

    So, if you want an argument, backed by the experience of a whole society of, let’s face it, not the most liberal people in the whole world (quite the bloody contrary!) you can point to the sky over Europe: it’s still up there.

  68. Bonnie says:

    Beth you need to do some reading. First you need to lookup as what co-dependennt is !
    Then try doing some research on intersex, they are not medicaly related.

    plus your opinion is flawed due to lack of knowledge.

  69. Stellewriter says:

    The main position with many who are Intersex is that few have GID issues. They are not struggling with incongruency of body and gender. Some however do, 5%? And some who are Intersex are very GID and need to transition. And as in my case, an MtF, transitoned, I had certain elements that were not exactly normal. Add to that DES and “Voila'”, another life messed up by our wonderful Pharma-chemical industry! Does that mean I was IS too? I have asked Intersexuals what they think about This, and also, Chimera’s as they can have two or more male, or female, chromsone sets, or mixed, and yet be ostensibly normal binary. Still waiting for the answer…..

  70. Stellewriter says:

    The main position with many who are Intersex is that few have GID issues. They are not struggling with incongruency of body and gender. Some however do, 5%? And some who are Intersex are very GID and need to transition. And as in my case, an MtF, transitoned, I had certain elements that were not exactly normal. Add to that DES and “Voila'”, another life messed up by our wonderful Pharma-chemical industry! Does that mean I was IS too? I have asked Intersexuals what they think about This, and also, Chimera’s as they can have two or more male, or female, chromsone sets, or mixed, and yet be ostensibly normal binary. Still waiting for the answer…..

  71. Val says:

    I believe there may be a good many non-trans intersex people who might take exception to such a broad assertion.

    In any case, there doesn’t seem to be sufficient evidence for such absolutism.

  72. beth says:

    Anyone who doesn’t think intersexuality and transexuality isn’t co-dependent, medically related, and should share a common ground is apparently deluded to the point of ignorance in my opinion.

  73. beth says:

    Anyone who doesn’t think intersexuality and transexuality isn’t co-dependent, medically related, and should share a common ground is apparently deluded to the point of ignorance in my opinion.

  74. Stellewriter says:

    who, can, bullets…and dyslexia!

  75. Stellewriter says:

    No bullets YET!

    I think perspective revolves around the actual facts, history, and hearing “all” of the evidence and opinions. Short of that, anyone can be a bigot and Trans-racist, Trans-phobic, or even a Transinista (Still not sure what that means). With all of the hormones we are subjected to, I cannot believe that any of us who are trans and devouring pill bottles and viles of injectables can ever come to a sensible communication that anyone could understand.

    It will come down to someone, wo cah sanely speak for the rest of us, and do so with clarity, and yet be supportable by the Trans-Community. It will come down to our gathering together for a common objective and preservation, or we will perish by social elimination. Even now there is research to identify TS/IS in the womb and at the gene level. It is said that intervention may be less than 10 years away. I would assume then that would leave the gay all alone. So, the Trans-newbie’s will be engineered out of existence. And all of remainng will be likely shut away. When that happens, I guess the bulits will fly!

  76. Stellewriter says:

    No bullets YET!

    I think perspective revolves around the actual facts, history, and hearing “all” of the evidence and opinions. Short of that, anyone can be a bigot and Trans-racist, Trans-phobic, or even a Transinista (Still not sure what that means). With all of the hormones we are subjected to, I cannot believe that any of us who are trans and devouring pill bottles and viles of injectables can ever come to a sensible communication that anyone could understand.

    It will come down to someone, wo cah sanely speak for the rest of us, and do so with clarity, and yet be supportable by the Trans-Community. It will come down to our gathering together for a common objective and preservation, or we will perish by social elimination. Even now there is research to identify TS/IS in the womb and at the gene level. It is said that intervention may be less than 10 years away. I would assume then that would leave the gay all alone. So, the Trans-newbie’s will be engineered out of existence. And all of remainng will be likely shut away. When that happens, I guess the bulits will fly!