ENDA Three Card Draw
September 27, 2007
Activism Leaders Leading Towards the Door
January 24, 2008

Are We Ready For Prime Time?

With the announcement from the Democratic National Committee of the appointment of a record number of LGBT members to the 2008 Democratic National Convention Standing Committees, an obvious question for transgender activists and supporters is are we ready for prime time?

The 2004 Democratic National Convention included seven transgender delegates. While this was historic, many people felt let down when the DNC left transgender people out of the party platform.

At the time, Steel City Stonewall Democrats Founder, Scott Safier said:

Needless to say, this is a great disappointment. This DNC convention will have more out and proud transgender delegates than ever before. Sadly, the trans community and their allies, may be the one group in attendance whose needs are left out of the platform entirely.It is not enough for the Democratic Party to oppose employment discrimination based on sexual orientation and ignore employment discrimination based on gender identity and expression.It is not enough for the Democratic Party to say ‘Lesbian and Gay’, and not ‘Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender’.

We must stand with our transgender brothers and sisters and assure they are included in the Democratic Party’s vision for a Country where everyone is valued and respected, and nobody is left behind.

Since there wasn’t transgender representation on the platform committee, Safier stood in. He put forth amendment to the platform but at the request of the transgender delegates he withdrew it. Saying:

Mr. Chairman, I am instructed by the transgender delegates to tell this committee that the trans-community stands united behind the Kerry/Edwards ticket and will work for a Democratic victory in November. At the request of the trans-delegation, and in recognition of this solidarity, I have been asked to withdraw this amendment, and do so now.

With the announcement of Diego Sanchez to the 2008 platform committee, one has to wonder if this is a signal that the Democratic Party is ready to add us to their platform. After the divisive bruising that transgender community took during the ENDA battle, the addition in the transgender people to the platform would be a positive step forward. Conversely, being left out for the second time in eight years would solidify the message that transgender people are too controversial to even mention. Hopefully the addition of Sanchez to the platform committee isn’t a token appointment, but a meaningful step forward.

227 Comments

  1. jeri says:

    the guys on this thread seem to be a lot nicer than the women. that doesn’t say much for women. if you can accept yourself for who you are, others will come around. you don’t have to beat someone in a debate. you can just express an opinion. for whatever it is worth, i am post-op and consider myself a woman, but no more or less than some of the non-op women that i do know. or female at birth women that i do know. i am more feminine than some, more “butch” or masculine than others, but no more or less of a woman. why lash out at others because they are different? isn’t that the same kind of prejudice and bigotry that hurts us all? don’t we all deserve simple respect and dignity? with this kind of internal conflict, the transsexual and/or the transgender community is at a terrible disadvantage for simple survival, much less to serve as a catalyst for gaining basic civil rights. we had all better learn how to agree to disagree.

  2. jeri says:

    the guys on this thread seem to be a lot nicer than the women. that doesn’t say much for women. if you can accept yourself for who you are, others will come around. you don’t have to beat someone in a debate. you can just express an opinion. for whatever it is worth, i am post-op and consider myself a woman, but no more or less than some of the non-op women that i do know. or female at birth women that i do know. i am more feminine than some, more “butch” or masculine than others, but no more or less of a woman. why lash out at others because they are different? isn’t that the same kind of prejudice and bigotry that hurts us all? don’t we all deserve simple respect and dignity? with this kind of internal conflict, the transsexual and/or the transgender community is at a terrible disadvantage for simple survival, much less to serve as a catalyst for gaining basic civil rights. we had all better learn how to agree to disagree.

  3. Felix says:

    Thank you, Dyssonance (great name, by the way!) Yes, I consider myself a transperson and would fall under the “transgender” category according to Susan et al. I have a broadly female-to-male identity which I did not fully recognise or wish to “bring out” until middle age – like lots of people. I am still unsure about using testosterone or have any kind of surgery to make me more of what I already know myself to be – but that’s for another time and place. A group of friends and myself run an FTM support group in the UK for anyone identifying on this spectrum; many of us are activists and meet a huge variety of self-defined transpeople at various events both academic and informal. I think such life experience gives me the ability to comment intelligently on what I see here – and at the moment it ain’t pretty! The argument about “the penis making the man”, for example, reminds me of the old joke about always buying male jelly babies because you get more for your money. 🙂 In other words, the absence or presence of a penis is used above as the primary marker of sex, NOT the absence or presence of a vagina. Natal females, whether transitioned to legally male or not, have the genitalia that is “other” to the penis, the “gap” between the legs which can be ignored – hence the failure of the HBS transwomen to extrapolate from their own theory that FTMs are also actually women, and always will be. The concern about female safety in bathrooms is whitewash – no transwoman is going to go to the Ladies’ room, hike her skirt up and look around for a urinal. What Susan, Leigh et al are concerned about is separating themselves from transwomen who do not “pass” by their exacting standards, as this may confuse them in the public eye with drag queens and, by extension, with gay men. They seem to dislike gay, lesbian and bi folk with a passion yet, as I said on the “Radical Feminist” thread – what of those transwomen still living happily with their wives? What about transmen who are partnered with males (natal or otherwise)? The homophobic nutter with the knife isn’t going to have a debate about gender identity and sexuality with their victims before they strike. Take care, everyone, Felix.

  4. Felix says:

    Thank you, Dyssonance (great name, by the way!) Yes, I consider myself a transperson and would fall under the “transgender” category according to Susan et al. I have a broadly female-to-male identity which I did not fully recognise or wish to “bring out” until middle age – like lots of people. I am still unsure about using testosterone or have any kind of surgery to make me more of what I already know myself to be – but that’s for another time and place. A group of friends and myself run an FTM support group in the UK for anyone identifying on this spectrum; many of us are activists and meet a huge variety of self-defined transpeople at various events both academic and informal. I think such life experience gives me the ability to comment intelligently on what I see here – and at the moment it ain’t pretty! The argument about “the penis making the man”, for example, reminds me of the old joke about always buying male jelly babies because you get more for your money. 🙂 In other words, the absence or presence of a penis is used above as the primary marker of sex, NOT the absence or presence of a vagina. Natal females, whether transitioned to legally male or not, have the genitalia that is “other” to the penis, the “gap” between the legs which can be ignored – hence the failure of the HBS transwomen to extrapolate from their own theory that FTMs are also actually women, and always will be. The concern about female safety in bathrooms is whitewash – no transwoman is going to go to the Ladies’ room, hike her skirt up and look around for a urinal. What Susan, Leigh et al are concerned about is separating themselves from transwomen who do not “pass” by their exacting standards, as this may confuse them in the public eye with drag queens and, by extension, with gay men. They seem to dislike gay, lesbian and bi folk with a passion yet, as I said on the “Radical Feminist” thread – what of those transwomen still living happily with their wives? What about transmen who are partnered with males (natal or otherwise)? The homophobic nutter with the knife isn’t going to have a debate about gender identity and sexuality with their victims before they strike. Take care, everyone, Felix.

  5. Dyssonance says:

    Hi felix.

    I assume you dare to assume to speak about how Transsexual women feel about having a penis or whether or not they feel like it was gotten rid of rather easily.

    Primarily because I assume you are trans yourself in some way, and probably have a pretty damned good idea — regardless of the sex divide you fall on.

    You are totally correct — and one of the reasons why Leigh and others continue to have issues is because they refuse to see that they are dissing transmen as well as transwomen.

    Her earlier response to me indicates she doesn’t even know the *history* of the words she’s in a fight against (she misdescribes Virgina Price, as well), or even that very specific quirk to the Harry Benjamin SOS scale that she thinks makes her separate (it includes a blunt statement of how gay an individual is, and type 6’s like herself are totally gay according to it).

    They are trolling the forum, and were it not for the fact my responses are possibly too long, or I’m having some sort of browser issue, I’d have a couple of responses that would make all of that clearer.

  6. Dyssonance says:

    Hi felix.

    I assume you dare to assume to speak about how Transsexual women feel about having a penis or whether or not they feel like it was gotten rid of rather easily.

    Primarily because I assume you are trans yourself in some way, and probably have a pretty damned good idea — regardless of the sex divide you fall on.

    You are totally correct — and one of the reasons why Leigh and others continue to have issues is because they refuse to see that they are dissing transmen as well as transwomen.

    Her earlier response to me indicates she doesn’t even know the *history* of the words she’s in a fight against (she misdescribes Virgina Price, as well), or even that very specific quirk to the Harry Benjamin SOS scale that she thinks makes her separate (it includes a blunt statement of how gay an individual is, and type 6’s like herself are totally gay according to it).

    They are trolling the forum, and were it not for the fact my responses are possibly too long, or I’m having some sort of browser issue, I’d have a couple of responses that would make all of that clearer.

  7. Felix says:

    Does what rather easily? I don’t “get” what you mean!

  8. Felix says:

    Does what rather easily? I don’t “get” what you mean!

  9. Dyssonance says:

    I will assume that Felix does it rather easily.

    Pretty much like the way you dare to assume what defines a man is their penis.

    IF this short quip goes through, I’ll consider coming back for a fourth time to repost my responses.

    In the interim, be aware tat you have been utterly and wholly incorrect and you depend not on logic, but on assumptive reasoning for your points.

    And all your assumptions are fallacious.

  10. Felix says:

    I am sorry if my comment on the former penises of transwomen offended you, Leigh. I make no claim to speak for transwomen, of course, but it is a fact that parts of the penis are used to construct the vagina and clitoris during surgery. Transmen have the same nipples and breast tissue after sex reconstruction – it is reinterpreted as a male chest by the observer reading the FTM as a genetic male. And why this persistent focus on the penis here? Can the absence or presence of one really define one’s gender? Transmen don’t drive themselves up the wall seeking for one as a “badge of honour” as I believe they were described earlier in this thread. 99% of us in the UK have female gentialia, so there already ARE “men with vaginas” (as Marti describes in her Radical Feminist” thread) and always will be. I appreciate that you do not define as an HBS person but relate to his theories and I would defend your right to do so. However, while HBS folk claim not to believe that surgery = the correctly gendered person (or do they? I get confused!) HBS transwomen seem to constantly claim that a self-identified transwoman with a penis is still a man and one post-operatively is a woman. Why do they not claim that FTMs are women, using the same criteria? Where are the FTM voices of the HBS survivors? I am not trying to stir things here, just genuinely puzzled by this seeming lack of consistency.
    Best wishes, Felix.

  11. Susan says:

    Gosh, Val, I would hope others would take their own claims at face value, regardless of whether they have had surgery or not. Would seem sane to me.

  12. Leigh says:

    “Transwomen do not get rid of their penises”

    I am not .. and how dare YOU to assume to speak about how Transsexual women feel about having a penis or whether or not they feel like it was gotten rid of!

  13. Val says:

    People like Leigh and Susan always demand that others take their own claims at face value, regardless of surgical status – I know this from personal experience.

  14. Felix says:

    Leigh – I really, REALLY hope you are a transman because if you’re not how f**king DARE you to assume to speak about how we see our chests/breasts.
    As for Marti’s comment, she was referring to Susan’s seeming obsession with other people’s genitalia. Transwomen do not get rid of their penises, the organs are reconstructed into neo-vaginas ergo organs do not make the wo/man.

  15. Felix says:

    Leigh – I really, REALLY hope you are a transman because if you’re not how f**king DARE you to assume to speak about how we see our chests/breasts.
    As for Marti’s comment, she was referring to Susan’s seeming obsession with other people’s genitalia. Transwomen do not get rid of their penises, the organs are reconstructed into neo-vaginas ergo organs do not make the wo/man.

  16. Val says:

    Excellent. Susan has done an admirable job o demonstrating just why I find her so entertaining.

    The entire time she’s been posting here, she’s been casting about for something that she could be certain established her ultimate moral authority. Believing that she’s found it in this “double standard” question, she has abandoned all other lines of persuasion, and harped on it at least four times in one day, reinforcing her withering endgame with some sophomoric boasting about “intellectualy crushing you in debate” (and I do mean sophomoric… the only time I’ve seen such ape-like chest-beating since college is from a guy who thought he was Clarence Darrow’s own gift to wingnuts).

    She is a martinet, and the less she has to say, the more she reveals.

    For the record, I do not agree with about half of what Marti writes. I do not curry her favor. Neither, however, do I feel any need to open a line of criticism simply to satisfy the rhetorical challenge – the martinet’s version of “I double dare you” – offered by a venomous lunatic.

  17. Dyssonance says:

    Save that I wasn’t silent. Nor were others.

    And its a rather sad commentary that you are looking for insults…

  18. queen emily says:

    I think that’s a dismissive and misguided statement from Marti, and I – don’t – defend it. Just as I don’t defend the rabid disrespect you’ve shown for any other form of trans* identity other than your own.

    And yes, there is a difference between respecting a transsexual woman’s identity – and fyi I bloody fit your criteria of what legimately constitutes a transsexual woman *and yet* I still manage to disagree with you – and your own vitriolic form of politics which requires every trans person to fit into your own mould.

    Seriously, HBS is a form of activism dedicated to defending the status quo. Next up, “the sky is blue” activism. No clouds! And grey is RIGHT OUT!

    Laters xx

  19. queen emily says:

    I think that’s a dismissive and misguided statement from Marti, and I – don’t – defend it. Just as I don’t defend the rabid disrespect you’ve shown for any other form of trans* identity other than your own.

    And yes, there is a difference between respecting a transsexual woman’s identity – and fyi I bloody fit your criteria of what legimately constitutes a transsexual woman *and yet* I still manage to disagree with you – and your own vitriolic form of politics which requires every trans person to fit into your own mould.

    Seriously, HBS is a form of activism dedicated to defending the status quo. Next up, “the sky is blue” activism. No clouds! And grey is RIGHT OUT!

    Laters xx

  20. Susan says:

    Anyway…I through with this thread. There are so many post on this thread I’m having a hard time finding the insults.

    Val, others, take your best shots.

    As for the question?

    Just as I predicted and suspecred…

    not a peep.

    Not…

    one…

    single…

    peep.

    Silence speaks volumes…

  21. Susan says:

    Anyway…I through with this thread. There are so many post on this thread I’m having a hard time finding the insults.

    Val, others, take your best shots.

    As for the question?

    Just as I predicted and suspecred…

    not a peep.

    Not…

    one…

    single…

    peep.

    Silence speaks volumes…

  22. Susan says:

    >> Bollocks. Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman. *Anyone* who de-genders someone’s identity is not cool with me.

    Well…just about any…, but not all.

  23. Susan says:

    ROFL…It would be such a joy to intellectually crush you in a head up debate, Val.

    > If Susan Stanton or anyone else refers to the transgendered as “…men in dresses”, the entire transgendered community comes absolutely unglued.

    > However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.

    (I thought I would add the rest of the post that you conveniently left out…understandably…in your valiant quest to “win” instead of defend, explain, or justify.)

    Trump card…? Hardly. It’s watching you and the rest who have posted on this thread ignore the elephant at the dinner table. What else can you do. Surely you can’t defend it; I’d really enjoy hearing you explain why it’s a cardinal transgender sin to allow someone like Susan Stanton refer to the transgendered as “men in dresses”, but if a transgender refers to a post op female as not a female, or less than female, that is perfectly OK…and doesn’t even merit discussion; and obviously you can’t defend it either…so, you are just poop out of luck, huh?

    Trump card? Not on your life. It’s the double standard you try to ignore and will not respond to in anything resembling debate. It’s all of the other issues you have brought up I have challenged you to either explain or substantiate and of which you don’t and can’t.

  24. Susan says:

    Dribble, drool, and drivel…how about the question.

    Why not?

    LOL Never mind, any and every person reading all these posts know why not?

  25. Leigh says:

    “Bollocks. Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman. *Anyone* who de-genders someone’s identity is not cool with me.”

    On reflection, I am glad you made that statement. Marti, the owner of this blog, and I am sure someone you would respect as a transgender activist had the following to say on the Bilerico blog about a long term post operative transsexual woman:

    “You want to get technical Sue? In the strictest definition, you’re not female. The distinction between the “sexes” is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your “sex” isn’t based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn’t even an “organ.” An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your “vagina” isn’t a social construct, it’s a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands….”

    In light of this, is Marti now *uncool* with you? How do you feel now about your statement:

    “Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman”

    Mutual Respect eh! …

    Full Story here : http://trans-feminist.blogspot.com/2008/01/not-ready-for-prime-time-or-how-tg.html

    And here: Bilerico article entitled Shower Scare from Anti-Trans Group.

  26. Leigh says:

    “Bollocks. Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman. *Anyone* who de-genders someone’s identity is not cool with me.”

    On reflection, I am glad you made that statement. Marti, the owner of this blog, and I am sure someone you would respect as a transgender activist had the following to say on the Bilerico blog about a long term post operative transsexual woman:

    “You want to get technical Sue? In the strictest definition, you’re not female. The distinction between the “sexes” is that a female has the ability to produce ova, and the male has the ability to produce produces sperm. Your “sex” isn’t based on an organ but on your reproductive ability. For that matter, your neo-vagina isn’t even an “organ.” An organ is tissue or a group of tissues that constitute a morphologically and functionally distinct part of an organism. Your “vagina” isn’t a social construct, it’s a surgical construct. And an incomplete construct at that! Go find your bartholin glands….”

    In light of this, is Marti now *uncool* with you? How do you feel now about your statement:

    “Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman”

    Mutual Respect eh! …

    Full Story here : http://trans-feminist.blogspot.com/2008/01/not-ready-for-prime-time-or-how-tg.html

    And here: Bilerico article entitled Shower Scare from Anti-Trans Group.

  27. Leigh says:

    Leigh said …”You may now throw insults!”

    gotta love val for casting the first stone, even though it was wrapped in a sarcastic compliment … 🙂

  28. queen emily says:

    *something like

  29. queen emily says:

    *something like

  30. queen emily says:

    Yeah, I could see how something mutual respect would be a problem for you to grasp.

  31. queen emily says:

    Yeah, I could see how something mutual respect would be a problem for you to grasp.

  32. Leigh says:

    “What you’ve had done to your body is irrelevant to me in so far as honouring your identity as a woman.”

    Speaking of bollocks …. now thats the funniest thing I eva’ heyd!

  33. Leigh says:

    No one here is condemning anyone for anything. Personally I could care less if your Gay, Straight or Australian!

    HBS/transsexuals state that there is no such thing as a non-op transsexual. We hold that there are two classes of transsexuals; pre-op transsexuals that are working toward surgery even if that means that it must be done at a later time for financial reasons, and the other class, those transsexuals that would have surgery but cannot due to medical reasons that preclude surgery.

    A non-op transsexual is neither a transsexual or a woman since they have no intention of losing that penultimate badge of masculinity, their penis! A non-op is simply a man that chooses to call himself a female and present as one when the urge takes him. There is nothing wrong with this in our view but they are not women. However, there are no women with a penis, by choice. Not genetic women nor transsexual women. The operative word here is by “Choice”. A transsexual woman is inately compelled to seek surgery to remove the offending organ, just as for transmen the removal of the breasts is a compelling issue.
    These things are not choices for transsexuals, only for transgenders.

    Nothing I have said here is condeming anyone. It is our viewpoint, one you may not share but one we will continue to express whenever confronted with those that would try to attach themselves to us by transposing the words crossdresser and transvestite for transsexual.

  34. queen emily says:

    >>>However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.

    Bollocks. Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman. *Anyone* who de-genders someone’s identity is not cool with me.

    But to be clear, you’re a woman to me because you say you’re a woman, not because of any surgery you’ve had. What you’ve had done to your body is irrelevant to me in so far as honouring your identity as a woman.

  35. queen emily says:

    >>>However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.

    Bollocks. Just about any transgendered activist I know strongly defend any trans woman’s right to be seen as a woman. *Anyone* who de-genders someone’s identity is not cool with me.

    But to be clear, you’re a woman to me because you say you’re a woman, not because of any surgery you’ve had. What you’ve had done to your body is irrelevant to me in so far as honouring your identity as a woman.

  36. Leigh says:

    No they didn’t .. I was there. Transitioned in 1978 long before most folk even knew what a transsexual was.

  37. Leigh says:

    There is a huge difference between bullying and standing one’s ground. I have stated my case and the case of other HBS/transsexuals that agree with me. You have stated an opposite opinion which I respect up to the point where you no longer have anything to add to the debate other than to restate the obvious and name call.

    It strikes me that for a group of people that are so concerned about the rights of everyone to define themself, the transgenders have zero tolerance when it comes to the rights of post operative HBS/transsexuals that have been transitioned longer than the term transgender came to popular use. Instead you hurl insults and tell us we are devisive, elitist, bigoted and on more than one occassion it has be said that we are nothing more than queer men that went to the extreme’s of surgical intervention.

    When you say this to us you are no better than the right wing christians and the redneck bigots that call you queers and fags and freaks and men in dresses.

    You ask us to support you yet you deny our claim to being different from you. Not only that but as a group you do this with not one of you willing to recognize that what I just said is true.

    … and you call ME a bully!

  38. Felix says:

    Yes, indeed, Wolfgang Eli and society was influenced by the medical profession who dealt with physical transition and they in turn were influenced by the late 19th/early 20th century sexologists’ definition of the “Invert” (a woman in a man’s body and vice-versa). For decades this theory – what we now may call transsexuality – was conflated with homosexuality as a way of explaining it. Medical theories also helped to decriminalize acts of male homosexuality by reference to it being an inborn condition rather than a sin or a criminal desire learned from others.
    Issues of human sex (chromosomal and genital), gender identity and sexual preference are all entwined and tangled up; language can never adequately explain or untangle them as it is itself formed from many differing rhetorics, depending on the motivations of the speaker – the rhetoric of compassion, of scientific rationale, of civil rights and so on.
    Transgender people are in the unique position of being able to understand experientially how language can both affirm and hurt us. Surely we should be pulling together, not condemning someone as “less than” because they cannot afford surgery, or are afraid of it or are not well enough to undergo it? Surely we need to welcome the secret cross-dresser, the street workers, the transmen in labouring jobs who are terrified of exposure? Dear God, one of us a month is murdered – can’t we at least try to live in mutual respect?

  39. Felix says:

    Yes, indeed, Wolfgang Eli and society was influenced by the medical profession who dealt with physical transition and they in turn were influenced by the late 19th/early 20th century sexologists’ definition of the “Invert” (a woman in a man’s body and vice-versa). For decades this theory – what we now may call transsexuality – was conflated with homosexuality as a way of explaining it. Medical theories also helped to decriminalize acts of male homosexuality by reference to it being an inborn condition rather than a sin or a criminal desire learned from others.
    Issues of human sex (chromosomal and genital), gender identity and sexual preference are all entwined and tangled up; language can never adequately explain or untangle them as it is itself formed from many differing rhetorics, depending on the motivations of the speaker – the rhetoric of compassion, of scientific rationale, of civil rights and so on.
    Transgender people are in the unique position of being able to understand experientially how language can both affirm and hurt us. Surely we should be pulling together, not condemning someone as “less than” because they cannot afford surgery, or are afraid of it or are not well enough to undergo it? Surely we need to welcome the secret cross-dresser, the street workers, the transmen in labouring jobs who are terrified of exposure? Dear God, one of us a month is murdered – can’t we at least try to live in mutual respect?

  40. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Susan wrote, “However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.”

    Woman vs. Female. We might, as a movement, do well to draw a distinction between these two words, as well as Man vs. Male. “Woman” and “man” are defined largly in a social sense, whereas “male” and “female” are purely biological.

    Like it or not, with regard to male and female, we transsexuals are all intersexed. One of the problems we have with explaining our condition to the general public is that most people have a basic understanding of biology and tend to view things from a very objective point of view. If an animal has both male and female traits, it is intersexed. If a human has an XY chromosome configuration, a female brain, and has had hormone treatments and surgery to align her body with her mind, she calls herself 100% female. Predictably, the general public scoffs.

    I’m sure you are 100% woman, but female? No, we are all intersexed, and that’s the only language our society is going to truly understand.

  41. Val says:

    > I will assume that was a typo.

    You presume too much. But I’ll give you an addendum here:

    I believe you are a woman because you say you are. Not because you have any kind of credentials, but because as I’ve said before, I tend to accept people’s own narrative, unless I have strong evidence to the contrary. How could a transwoman believe otherwise, unless she were to deny herself?

    You are of course ideologically incapable of reciprocity. I’ve read Diane’s words, and I know she speaks for you.

    That is an uncrossable divide, of your own making.

  42. Val says:

    Ok. You’re an idiot.

    Why yes, I do feel better. Thank you 🙂

    > tell me why the thousands and tens of thousands of post ops are not screaming their support of you.

    I think you know that’s a rhetorical failure… but I can also restate it. Why aren’t they screaming their support for your own position? Oh yes… because they’re all in the background. How convenient.

    The fact is that very few people of any kind are “activists” of any degree. Notice how, when you surf around the net, you seem the same people over and over again? Most trans people – transgender, transsexual, transwhatever – really just don’t give a shit either way.

    > understandably, you don’t like that attack on you identity.

    “Understandably?” Good. I’m glad that you’ve finally admitted that you rhetoric in this area amounts to little more than tactical offense.

    > But you and the other transsexualphobic transgendered

    What an awkward and inappropriate neologism. How can I be phobic about myself?

    > If Susan Stanton or anyone else refers to the transgendered as “…men in dresses”, the entire transgendered community comes absolutely unglued.

    I love how you seem to think this is some sort of trump card.

    Of course, you come similarly unglued under similar circumstances, so it’s kind of a moot point.

    Anyway, as I said, I’ll get to it elsewhere.

  43. Val says:

    Wow, Leigh… that’s like, the first seriously cogent response you’ve ever written. Or did Susan ghost-write it for you?

    And now for a couple of points:

    > Susan and I am neither bigoted nor prejudice.

    Well, yes you are. You reek of it. Your sneering contempt for anyone who doesn’t exactly fit your mold or pay service to your ideology is writ large. And the possible expression of mutual bigotry or prejudice on the part of others does not erase your own.

    > Maybe it’s because many transsexuals don’t like being defined by, and associated with, a sexuality-oriented organization such as the GLB and the associated transgender construct.

    Very true. And in fact many gays and lesbians seem to agree. The alliance may very well not work on certain scales… though it very definitely does on certain others, and that’s what makes this so very delicate and complicated. But I think that most of us recognize that this is an alliance, not a merging of identities. It is you who have misunderstood and overgeneralized.

    > Transsexuals don’t support the GLB carte blanc anyhow.

    Correction: “some transsexuals.” You do not speak for all of us.

    > How does not unilaterally supporting the gay agenda or the transgender construct make us elitist or divisive?

    You are not merely unsupportive, you are specifically contemptuous and destructive.

    > Perhaps there is little science behind transsexualism

    That is an astonishing concession, coming from you.

    > A female impersonator invented the term; transgender was entirely constructed to differentiate crossdressers FROM transsexuals.

    Oh, yadda. The term has been repurposed. Big whoop. Only you seem to be stuck on it.

  44. Susan says:

    >>Short version: I don’t think that post-op women are any less than women… but for different reasons than you.

    Excuse me…but I don’t think post op female are less than female…period. I will assume that was a typo.

    But as you say you don’t, I’m waiting for you to rant and rave on at the people who do…

  45. Susan says:

    >>Idiot.

    You can call me an idiot until you croak, if it makes you feel better. But I’m still waiting for you to substantiate the things you have posted and tell me why the thousands and tens of thousands of post ops are not screaming their support of you.

    You and the transgendered construct give attitude new definition when someone calls you “…men in dresses”; you don’t like that disrespect…understandably, you don’t like that attack on you identity.

    But you and the other transsexualphobic transgendered have no issue whatsoever referring to post op females as not women at all, or less than female, and then whine and insult us when WE present an attitude and object to that characterization.

    So, you say “screw you” when you feel your identity is being erased or threatened, but you have no issue whatsoever with erasing ours. What a convenient double standard. Typically, when you can’t substantiate what you say, or justify your double standard, you result to insult, with no perspective or answer forthcoming.

    Again…

    If Susan Stanton or anyone else refers to the transgendered as “…men in dresses”, the entire transgendered community comes absolutely unglued.

    However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.

    WHY NOT?

  46. Val says:

    Funny. I was just reading the entry to which I think you’re referring.

    I have a couple of responses, neither of which are germane to this discussion. You’ll find them elsewhere after I post them.

    Short version: I don’t think that post-op women are any less than women… but for different reasons than you.

  47. Susan says:

    Just one, Val.

    If Susan Stanton or anyone else refers to the transgendered as “…men in dresses”, the entire transgendered community comes absolutely unglued.

    However, if the transgendered refer to post op females as not female at all, or less than female, none of you say a thing…not a thing…not peep.

    WHY NOT?

  48. Val says:

    Hey, you’re getting better. Very meaty. Even a few things worth considering.

    A couple of points again, though:

    > Not by a group of transgenders standing on the Court House steps, Val, demanding our rights.

    I gather that you’re referring to a picture of a group of lobbyists? If so, it’s a poor example, since such people – and their allies – are exactly how laws are put into place. Not by the angry fiat of invisibles like yourself.

    Katrina is an excellent example… I could only wish that you had the integrity to follow it.

    > And you mention electroshock therapy as though that was a common practice on transsexals in the past.

    I did not infer that it was common, though I rather do expect that it was more so before than now. I do know, though, that Dylan Scholinksi suffered it, and the community is fileld with stories similar to his… if not involving electroshock, then psychiatric abuse of other kinds.

    I put it to you that your “fight” has been in the wrong place, if the energies you put here are any evidence. You are so offended that the barbarians may slip through your identity cordon, that you have lost all compassion for any but the ideologically pure.

    > As for the rest of you diatribe, I just did it. I didn’t ask, I didn’t demand a right, I certainly didn’t look for an excuse why I couldn’t, I just friggin did it…it wouldn’t have mattered what the obstacles were,

    Ah. I see. So the very “system” that you and Leigh insist is the only approved path toward transition is really there just to keep up barriers to everyone else… but you? You just do what you need to.

    Idiot. You’ve complained your little paradise is being sullied now that any poor shmoe can go to thailand and get the vagina that is your badge of courage, and you fail to recognize that most of the people who do so have exactly the attitude you’ve just demonstrated: “I will do this, because I must, and by my own will.”

    > And THAT is the difference between you and me.

    Bigots always need to create differences where there are none relevant, in order to sustain the “us vs them” mentality.

    > The “spectrum” is a transgender construct that was written on the backs of transsexuals

    I take it than that you agree with Michael Bailey, and there are no real bisexuals. And of course all those interesting people walking around, living all those interesting lives, are really just demented freaks.

    On this point again, I simply say again, “screw you.” Screw your need to erase real humans and their variety.

  49. Val says:

    > Why is it that the transgendered feel it necessary to hurl insults.

    Because of this persistent attitude:

    > Not to worry though, the majority of us have had to deal with way more than the disillusioned street queen getting to where we are today.

    Which you and Susan always trot out, in direct contradiction to your own stated “respect” for the lives and identities of transgender people, whether they are transsexual or not.

    Any further questions?

  50. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “Now, conveniently for the gay rights movement, society makes no distinction between gays and transgendered people.”

    Society mistook transsexuals for gays long before the two became a unified front.

  51. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “Now, conveniently for the gay rights movement, society makes no distinction between gays and transgendered people.”

    Society mistook transsexuals for gays long before the two became a unified front.

  52. Samantha Davis says:

    You know, bullies bring others down to their levels in leu of bringing themselves up.

    I’m looking at you, Leigh because this is what I hear: “my transition was miserable, therefore everyone else’s transition ought to be miserable too.”

    Well, I have some news for you, I’m going to fight hard for the people who come after me and I hope that someday their experience will be better than mine. Someday, transition won’t have to be painful.

  53. Samantha Davis says:

    You know, bullies bring others down to their levels in leu of bringing themselves up.

    I’m looking at you, Leigh because this is what I hear: “my transition was miserable, therefore everyone else’s transition ought to be miserable too.”

    Well, I have some news for you, I’m going to fight hard for the people who come after me and I hope that someday their experience will be better than mine. Someday, transition won’t have to be painful.

  54. Leigh says:

    “Leigh and Susan, I’m going to say this fairly simply.

    You are using the language of discrimination *against yourselves* and others.

    Your are being bigoted and prejudiced.”

    Susan and I am neither bigoted nor prejudice. We simply hold a different point of view than you and the others that post here. Lets not forget that you are the home team here. It is only natural that most of you will support each other and it is unlikely that Susan or I will ever convince any of you to change your point of view, or to at least see our point of view. Instead we are villified and called elitists and bigots. If a Native American says he is different from a Caucasian does that make him an elitist?

    We are not as you say “Creating an US and THEM” since we already believe that their is an “US and THEM”. We feel that the THEM part of the equation created it when they included the US part into their alliance with the GLB.

    Maybe it’s because many transsexuals don’t like being defined by, and associated with, a sexuality-oriented organization such as the GLB and the associated transgender construct. I don’t know why that would upset the transgender apple cart. Certainly a reasonable person can understand why someone or some group would not want to be categorized as something they know they are not. Transsexuals don’t support the GLB carte blanc anyhow. How does not unilaterally supporting the gay agenda or the transgender construct make us elitist or divisive? What is wrong with wanting to reclaim one’s identity that was first defined more than 60 years ago, and substantiated ever since, as being unique, innate, and not the same as either homosexuality or transvestism? Perhaps there is little science behind transsexualism, but there is no science whatsoever behind being transgendered. A female impersonator invented the term; transgender was entirely constructed to differentiate crossdressers FROM transsexuals. That differentiation worked well until the GLB incorporated the transgendered into the mix. Now, conveniently for the gay rights movement, society makes no distinction between gays and transgendered people. To society the entire group is gay. The US intend to make it known that we are not part of the THEM.

    You may now throw insults!

  55. Leigh says:

    Sounds like you have a reverse racism problem there Lisa .. you really should take an anger management course you know.

    Why is it that the transgendered feel it necessary to hurl insults. When every argument they have is rebutted, one by one, and the same old lame tired transgender logic is dissected to the molecule, invariably they fall back on accusing any and everyone who disagrees with them a bigot, in one form or the other. Their favorite term is transphobic. If employers don’t want them to be able to present as a female at work, their employers are transphobic. If the government doesn’t want to allow them to change their birth certificate because they have not had GRS, they are transphobic. And even if society simply just doesn’t appreciate the transgendered, society, of course, is transphobic.

    I think it is the transgendered who are the bigots. They give phobic new definition with the way they feel about post operative HBS/transsexuals. Not to worry though, the majority of us have had to deal with way more than the disillusioned street queen getting to where we are today.

    Have a nice day 🙂

  56. Dyssonance says:

    Wow.

    Leigh and Susan, I’m going to say this fairly simply.

    You are using the language of discrimination *against yourselves* and others.

    Your are being bigoted and prejudiced.

    You are creating and “us” and a “them”, and then saying that “they” arent’ as worthy of whatever it is you happen to hold sacred.

    Yes, we are ready for primetime. Indeed, we have been for ever. We are represented in Primetime, we are dealt with in Primetime.

    We are, however, atypical.

    All of us.

    If we weren’t ready for primetime, the issue with ENDA wouldn’t have been an issue.

    The behind the scenes work to get positive representations on talk shows and in nighttime programs wouldn’t have happened.

    So yeah, we’re ready — because we’ve already been there.

    all along.

    Its like asking “were black rights ready for primetime” in 1952.

    Its those who are isolated and consumed by the narrow focus of politics, and the need to compromise that are having the problem.

    ITs folks like Leigh and Susan that aren’t ready for primetime.

    And only because they hold those separatist views.

    Would it matter what they thought if we weren’t in a fight for simple basic rights, and, as a result, need to show some sense of unity?

    Not really.

    I’m not going to argue with them. Normally, I’d simply post corrections to their information and opinions.

    But I’m busy helping people who need it on a daily basis, and figuring out how to do the political thing in a very personal way.

    ENDA showed that we are not only ready, but that we have great allies, and that only a few people stand in our way.

    People willing to lie, and manipulate, and distract people using the most banal of tactics.

    Don’t6 let them consume you though.

    Let *doing* consume you.

  57. Dyssonance says:

    Wow.

    Leigh and Susan, I’m going to say this fairly simply.

    You are using the language of discrimination *against yourselves* and others.

    Your are being bigoted and prejudiced.

    You are creating and “us” and a “them”, and then saying that “they” arent’ as worthy of whatever it is you happen to hold sacred.

    Yes, we are ready for primetime. Indeed, we have been for ever. We are represented in Primetime, we are dealt with in Primetime.

    We are, however, atypical.

    All of us.

    If we weren’t ready for primetime, the issue with ENDA wouldn’t have been an issue.

    The behind the scenes work to get positive representations on talk shows and in nighttime programs wouldn’t have happened.

    So yeah, we’re ready — because we’ve already been there.

    all along.

    Its like asking “were black rights ready for primetime” in 1952.

    Its those who are isolated and consumed by the narrow focus of politics, and the need to compromise that are having the problem.

    ITs folks like Leigh and Susan that aren’t ready for primetime.

    And only because they hold those separatist views.

    Would it matter what they thought if we weren’t in a fight for simple basic rights, and, as a result, need to show some sense of unity?

    Not really.

    I’m not going to argue with them. Normally, I’d simply post corrections to their information and opinions.

    But I’m busy helping people who need it on a daily basis, and figuring out how to do the political thing in a very personal way.

    ENDA showed that we are not only ready, but that we have great allies, and that only a few people stand in our way.

    People willing to lie, and manipulate, and distract people using the most banal of tactics.

    Don’t6 let them consume you though.

    Let *doing* consume you.

  58. Susan says:

    >> Oh, I’m sorry… how did you get the right to change your birth certificate, to marry…?

    Not by a group of transgenders standing on the Court House steps, Val, demanding our rights. But since you asked, read how it happened for yourself, along with how the GLB has marginalized transsexuals, in this piece entitled The Proof is in the History: The Louisiana Constitution Recognizes Transsexual Marriages and Louisiana Law Covers Transsexuals – So Why isn’t Everybody Celebrating? written by Katrina Rose, someone you say you respect:

    http://www.deakin.edu.au/buslaw/law/dlr/pdf_files/vol9_iss2/8.pdf

    Now, as usual, you have no reply to the rest of my questions…why aren’t the thousands of post ops all lined up behind the GLBT?

    And you mention electroshock therapy as though that was a common practice on transsexals in the past. I’ve been fighting this since 1967 and I’ve never heard of that being the general mode of treatment. As you are a big fan of substantiation, care to point all of us to a link for your facts on that one?

    As for the rest of you diatribe, I just did it. I didn’t ask, I didn’t demand a right, I certainly didn’t look for an excuse why I couldn’t, I just friggin did it…it wouldn’t have mattered what the obstacles were, I STILL would have done whatever it took to change my sex. And THAT is the difference between you and me.

    >> Shemales – Are you aware that a lot of “shemales” eventually get surgery?

    Actually, no, I’m not aware of that. How about you showing me some substantiation? The only formal study I have ever seen on shemales was done by Don Kulick in a book entitled Travesti: Sex, Gender, and Culture Among Brazilian Transgendered Prostitutes. And in that book, Kulick’s study found that very few of the Brazilian Shemales opted for GRS, less than 2%, almost none of them identified as female, and most thought any male who did identify as female was mentally ill; they are straight up homosexual. That pretty much sums up the shemales online to me, including your cohort Stassa, who identifies as a shemale. You can read a bit about the book at this link, I’d loan you my copy but we are not on “lend” terms:

    http://astore.amazon.com/braziliansound-20/detail/0226461009

    >>Transsexuals have been using sex work as a means of survival and financing for a long, long time.

    Yes, a very few, a VERY few thousands and tens of thousands have resorted to prostitution, but your contention that the vast majority of the transgendered and transsexuals are street queens who resort to prostitution to support themselves is preposterous. The vast majority of the transgendered are productive people who contribute to society. Again, substantiate that you claims. Just more histrionics.

    >>GLB dung

    The “spectrum” is a transgender construct that was written on the backs of transsexuals who have since been delegitimized by the very people of whom they paved the way for. YOU are upset, tough. I am upset too. I am upset that those like you do no more than further the proposition and stereotype that post op transsexuals are no more than homosexual men who have mutilated themselves and will never be “real women” while you and others like you do little more than throw on makeup and a dress, WHEN you feel like it, and then after comparing yourselves to transsexuals, shout to the heavens “I am female.”

  59. Susan says:

    >> Oh, I’m sorry… how did you get the right to change your birth certificate, to marry…?

    Not by a group of transgenders standing on the Court House steps, Val, demanding our rights. But since you asked, read how it happened for yourself, along with how the GLB has marginalized transsexuals, in this piece entitled The Proof is in the History: The Louisiana Constitution Recognizes Transsexual Marriages and Louisiana Law Covers Transsexuals – So Why isn’t Everybody Celebrating? written by Katrina Rose, someone you say you respect:

    http://www.deakin.edu.au/buslaw/law/dlr/pdf_files/vol9_iss2/8.pdf

    Now, as usual, you have no reply to the rest of my questions…why aren’t the thousands of post ops all lined up behind the GLBT?

    And you mention electroshock therapy as though that was a common practice on transsexals in the past. I’ve been fighting this since 1967 and I’ve never heard of that being the general mode of treatment. As you are a big fan of substantiation, care to point all of us to a link for your facts on that one?

    As for the rest of you diatribe, I just did it. I didn’t ask, I didn’t demand a right, I certainly didn’t look for an excuse why I couldn’t, I just friggin did it…it wouldn’t have mattered what the obstacles were, I STILL would have done whatever it took to change my sex. And THAT is the difference between you and me.

    >> Shemales – Are you aware that a lot of “shemales” eventually get surgery?

    Actually, no, I’m not aware of that. How about you showing me some substantiation? The only formal study I have ever seen on shemales was done by Don Kulick in a book entitled Travesti: Sex, Gender, and Culture Among Brazilian Transgendered Prostitutes. And in that book, Kulick’s study found that very few of the Brazilian Shemales opted for GRS, less than 2%, almost none of them identified as female, and most thought any male who did identify as female was mentally ill; they are straight up homosexual. That pretty much sums up the shemales online to me, including your cohort Stassa, who identifies as a shemale. You can read a bit about the book at this link, I’d loan you my copy but we are not on “lend” terms:

    http://astore.amazon.com/braziliansound-20/detail/0226461009

    >>Transsexuals have been using sex work as a means of survival and financing for a long, long time.

    Yes, a very few, a VERY few thousands and tens of thousands have resorted to prostitution, but your contention that the vast majority of the transgendered and transsexuals are street queens who resort to prostitution to support themselves is preposterous. The vast majority of the transgendered are productive people who contribute to society. Again, substantiate that you claims. Just more histrionics.

    >>GLB dung

    The “spectrum” is a transgender construct that was written on the backs of transsexuals who have since been delegitimized by the very people of whom they paved the way for. YOU are upset, tough. I am upset too. I am upset that those like you do no more than further the proposition and stereotype that post op transsexuals are no more than homosexual men who have mutilated themselves and will never be “real women” while you and others like you do little more than throw on makeup and a dress, WHEN you feel like it, and then after comparing yourselves to transsexuals, shout to the heavens “I am female.”

  60. ShannonB says:

    Affictions on our sleve? Our rights are not afflictions, they are human rights. What we are asking for in being included in things like ENDA and anti-discrimination legislation is not special rights, we are demanding our human rights under the constitution. One of those basic rights is equal representation, which some believe should extend to the political parties as well. It is more than rhetoric, it is actions and ideas in motion.

  61. Stellewriter says:

    We will see by the workings of the gay movement, much of the gender protections now on the books be recinded and fade away. In fact I believe that even natal women will suffer from the militant gay thugs grab for power. We are seeing a repeat of history…. sorry no one took time to read their history book in grade school.

  62. Lisa Harney says:

    Let me say one more time in case you didn’t read it the first time….. I am NOT and never have been “privileged” ! If being white is priviledged then I must have been standing in the wrong line when they gave out the get out of jail free cards because I didn’t get one.

    O RLY? Aside from the fact that you can’t trust most white people to acknowledge white privilege, making your statement automatically suspect, people have observed consistent, reliable, patterns of treatment that people with certain skin colors receive.

    If you can’t even understand as basic a concept as white privilege, straight privilege, cissexual privilege, or male privilege, how can you possibly pretend to speak on the subject of civil rights and expect to sound intelligent instead of defensive, kneejerk, and just plain ignorant?

    Hell, if you don’t get that cissexual privilege exists and you’re trans, you’re either beyond dense or you’re so deeply in denial you might as well live on Mars for all the connection you have to Earth culture.
    ‘Cause that’s what you sound like.

  63. Lisa Harney says:

    Transition is tough. It SHOULD be tough. It is the fire that will burn the fakers and temper the needy. It should make you stronger and make you whole and make you self reliant. If it doesn’t then you did something wrong.

    No, society did something wrong.

    You…you know, you and Susan write some of the nastiest transphobic and homophobic screeds. Why don’t you guys take off and pretend to be cissexual, like you so dearly want everyone to believe you are? Just leave the rest of us trans people alone and stop pretending to speak for any of us. I don’t want your bigotry and HBS filth associated with my movement, thank you.

    Signed,

    a lesbian and a trans woman

  64. Val says:

    Excellent post, Susan. Substantive, generally free from your usual snide self-puffery.

    A couple of small points:

    > I don’t doubt at all that you fail to see the point of this conversation.

    This conversation and Leigh’s handwringing about her own difficulties are two different things.

    > And we say, me speaking for all of us, you’ve got a lot of god damn nerve calling us whiney.

    I never authorized you to speak for me, and I really wish you’d get off this “us/you/we” thing, as if you were the nominee for a collective.

    > Why were they NEVER on the court house steps begging for rights?

    Oh, I’m sorry… how did you get the right to change your birth certificate, to marry, to be given humane psychological services instead of electroshock? How, in fact, were you given the right to crossdress in public – as you had to do, if you followed the SOC to the letter – without being put in jail (what was the old limit… three pieces of clothing)?

    Oh that’s right. Those rights and privileges just came to you out of thin air. Of course.

    > shemales…

    Are you aware that a lot of “shemales” eventually get surgery? Transsexuals have been using sex work as a means of survival and financing for a long, long time. Or is sanctimonious moralism also a marker of “true HBS” people?

    > GLBT dung …

    And here is where I simply say “screw you.” You may choose not to ally yourself with queer, gender-variant and related people, but the “spectrum” is a fact written on the lives of a great many people, and for you to reduce the effort of those people to live their lives with support and without oppression to “dung” is more than usually offensive, even for you.

  65. Marti Abernathey says:

    Can we sing Kumbaya together?

  66. Val says:

    Great. Just what we need. Tranny dittoheads.

  67. Val says:

    > ask Val .. according to her (and many others) there is no such thing as a medical diagnosis of transsexualism.

    You would make a much stronger case for your own position if it were not based on the reflexive misstatement of opposing views.

    Compulsive lying seems to be another feature of your ideology.

  68. Leigh says:

    It is you who have their head buried in the sand

  69. Leigh says:

    Wow! Wish I had said that ..

  70. Leigh says:

    Ditto what susan said .. hows that for whiny ! .. and yes .. I AM better than susan !

  71. Leigh says:

    Are you white? Are you straight? Do you have a job and a home? If any of those you are privileged.

    Got stopped by a black cop last week. I had out of state plates. He couldn’t find anything else to ticket me for so he wrote me up for “failing to signal prior to 100 yards of a right turn”.

    Yes, I am so privledged!

    “You do realize that it is much harder to get a job nowadays without a degree than it was–even if you have decades of experience.”

    Think thats bad .. wait till you get to my age .. can you say “WalMart greeter” !

    “I do not insist that trans*folk are queer. I recognize that mainstream society sees us as such. I know that trans*people can be both trans* and queer. But I do not believe that being trans* means that we are queer.”

    Oh honey .. let me tell you .. no better still ask Val .. according to her (and many others) there is no such thing as a medical diagnosis of transsexualism. We are all queer, every last one of us, we just don’t know it. We are deludued into thinking we are better than everyone else.

    “I am not jeopardizing your marriage. Lack of education on trans*ism, cissexist and heterosexist bigots, and overblown fears of terrorism are threatening your marriage.”

    Sorry but your just plain wrong about that. Already since the emergence of trans activism and the gay marriage debate, DOMA laws have been strengthened everywhere. It is not unreasonable to think that some states will declare post op trans marriages null and void at some time in the near future.

  72. Leigh says:

    Wolfgang

    I resent paying school taxes when I don’t have children but thats the way it is. Some things we have no choice about. I don’t have any health insurance at all, I simply cannot afford it (as priviledged as I might be). Thats not to say that those that do have insurance should be treated differently than any one else that has insurance. I believe that everyone should get what they pay for. However, there are plenty of cases where cis-gendered people are left begging at the door for things they urgently need. I know that transition is not covered by most insurance companies, but that is not society’s fault, it is the fault of greed from the insurance companies and it is the fault of politicians that pander to the insurance lobby for their own greed.

  73. Susan says:

    Your condescending, sarcastic, verbal vomit is pitiful. You must be most unhappy to always have nothing but the negative to add, never a perspective or a view point of your own.

  74. Susan says:

    Wolfgang, you seem like a reasonable person, but there are many, many of the transgender who dispute that transsexualism is a medical condition. There are some who post in this forum who do.

    You are lucky you have not met any of them, they are an ignorant lot.

  75. Susan says:

    I don’t doubt at all that you fail to see the point of this conversation.

    But, you are right, Val, the legal status of post op transsexuals is arbitrary.

    And no doubt the legal gender of post ops will stay arbitrary if the likes of you, who consistently, both in this forum and on your blog, call into question and imply that transsexualism is not a medical issue, effectively dismissing 60+ years of research as if it never happened. The fact that the GLBT draws no distinction between transsexuals and others under the GLBT umbrella as they go marching toward their civil rights further puts our legal status in jeopardy as crossdressers and transsexuals are, to the general public, now seen as one and the same.

    You asked in another post for the substantiation of the fact that post ops for the most part have their surgery and moved off to just lead their lives in peace without anyone’s help.

    Well, it’s estimated there are in excess of 30,000 post ops walking around the US now days, with another 1500 or so added each year…where are they?

    Do you think all of those people were “privileged”?

    Do you think all of those people had an extra eighty grand in spare change hanging around for GRS, FFS, and electrolysis? Hell no, they didn’t. Most worked their butts off, scrimped, saved, went into debt, and did without in order to correct things. And we say, me speaking for all of us, you’ve got a lot of god damn nerve calling us whiney.

    Why aren’t they here?

    Why haven’t they lined up behind the GLBT?

    Why aren’t they on the court house steps begging for rights?

    Why were they NEVER on the court house steps begging for rights?

    You know why you never see these people…people like me…Leigh? Because they had surgery, took care of their business and then “moved into society” with no help from anyone…certainly not the GLBT.

    You, and others, harp on the fact that some of us use the term HBS/transsexuals. You know why we do? Because the crossdressers, shemales, and a huge portion of the transgender crowd now call themselves transsexuals…THAT’S been hijacked as well…and we want have it. If the GLBT will not draw a distinction between the casual crossdresser, and others in the transgender construct, and transsexuals hell bent on changing our sex, we intend to.

    You are right, the legal status of post ops is arbitrary in many states, and getting more so. But it wasn’t always that way until the GLBT got involved and started spreading their gender spectrum crap. In Louisiana, where I was born, the law allowing a change of birth certificate – on the books since 1968 way before the GLBT dung existed – was written specifically so post ops could marry. Many post ops have woken up to find that if we don’t stand up for our identity, no one else is going to, particularly the transgender activists who seem way more concerned about the GLB/T breakup drama and dropping names than the rights of transsexuals. The GLBT never did a damn thing for transsexuals except draw a lot of attention to us that we never, ever, EVER wanted…and THAT attention is what threatens our legal status.

    We don’t apologize for anything and to no one just because we object to others defining who we are, pulling us into something we never asked for and don’t belong to.

  76. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “The problem here is that the transgenders seem to feel that they are the victims.”

    I agree with you, to an extent. We need to focus on fighting for rights that are truely justifiable and avoid asking for things that come off as “special treatment” to mainstream society. Non-passing transsexuals asking for the “right” to use the gender-specific restroom of their gender identity comes to mind. We should all expect and accept that we will face some inconveniences during transition.

    But we also have a right to expect some things from society that cis-gendered people take for granted. For example, I resent paying a 5th of my income for health insurance that isn’t covering any of my medical treatment. Yet the insurance company pays claims for cis-gendered people whose treatments are no less of a “choice” than my transition.

  77. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “The problem here is that the transgenders seem to feel that they are the victims.”

    I agree with you, to an extent. We need to focus on fighting for rights that are truely justifiable and avoid asking for things that come off as “special treatment” to mainstream society. Non-passing transsexuals asking for the “right” to use the gender-specific restroom of their gender identity comes to mind. We should all expect and accept that we will face some inconveniences during transition.

    But we also have a right to expect some things from society that cis-gendered people take for granted. For example, I resent paying a 5th of my income for health insurance that isn’t covering any of my medical treatment. Yet the insurance company pays claims for cis-gendered people whose treatments are no less of a “choice” than my transition.

  78. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “You are the ones that linked it to sex by denying that transsexualism is a medically defined and well documented human condition.”

    Who do you mean by “you?” I’ve spent two years now going around to blogs and news websites where non-GLBT people gather and trying to educate them. I always define transsexualism as a medical condition, birth defect, physical anomaly, intersex condition, etc. I’ve met hundreds of other transsexuals doing the same, and I haven’t met *any* who deny the medical aspects of transsexualism.

    Leigh wrote, “However, the transgendered don’t seem to be able to breathe without referring to their GLBT association.”

    I accept the GLBT linkage because I’m not just a transsexual man, I’m also a gay one. I’m affected by the same legal/societal issues that affect other gay men.

    I’m well aware of the way society sees us. You’re not agreeing with their view, are you?

  79. Val says:

    > If being white is priviledged then I must have been standing in the wrong line when they gave out the get out of jail free cards because I didn’t get one.

    For the record, I agree with the sentiment behind this, although it does clash wonderfully with your earlier rants.. you come off as whiny.

    > Even now I work every damn day including the weekends and I still can’t call myself even well off.

    By the same token that you are responsible for your own transition and its circumstances, so to are you responsible for your own life and welfare. Most people you are arguing with here also work hard… some probably harder for less reward, some perhaps less hard for more.

    So what is the point of this? None, as far as I can tell, beyond your incessant need to claim moral superiority of one kind or another.

    > I am a woman and I have every right to be married to a man as his legal wife.

    How nice for you. Are you still in the UK? Here in the states, your legal gender is arbitrary, and not even consistently respected between states. Your marriage could well be eliminated as a woman with a transsexual history, and not through the actions of “the transgendered”, some of whom are in exactly your position and work for exactly the rights you claim.

  80. Stellewriter says:

    I agree we need to work cohesively and endlessly. However, we need to speak for ourselves. One face, one voice, one body and one spirit… it’s called community. When do we start? Waiting?

  81. Stellewriter says:

    Felix, Tally ho!

    Unlike Europe where everyone has had centuries of living and fighting in close proximity, we here in the USA have grown on space and independent, territorial behavior. Not a bad thing, but is not conducive to respecting the value of others. We say equlity, but it is no longer a gold standard. Nor is our money! This country in its early days had that value character from it’s old world connection. That has faded away and now no one really respects anyone. In fact, most now days hold everything in a disrespectful and hostile way. As the free space is slowly eaten up and we start killing off each other as was done in the many conflicts of the old country, we will change again. For now though, Disney Land is but a childhood memory…. and Transgender equality is not to be found.

  82. Stellewriter says:

    I see not problem with Transgender working within DNC or any parties activity, as long as they are speaking for themselves. The more active we are the more positive exposure we gain. It does not take much for one person to develop a positive attitude and perspective about the Transgender, when they see and work with us. A rough road sometimes, but worthy. I also agree that we need to stop bickering and cutting at each others throats.

    The only thing that ruffles me is when from a platform someone makes decisions and rhetoric speaking for me, and I do not have input to what is said. HRC and Barney Frank as example. So who do we know that has gotten onto the GOP and Libetarian band wagons staff?

  83. Stellewriter says:

    Here in Atlanta this day, “Dr. King” day, the black community (I use black the same way I use white) is coming together to feed, give medical care, and much more to those blacks who are without the barest of resources. Two thirds of Atlanta have combined household incomes less than $25,000 per year. That means that several in the household are working or there is only one income, yet, it is not enough. Atlanta has the largest and most powerful gay community in the US and probably the world. Some of my gay friends are the kindest and most giving people I have ever met. They help and assist each other and provide a safety net for the gay in the perimeter. You do not see homeless gays walking the streets. What you do see are Transgender and others who have “NO” support what so ever on the streets. It is one reason I did not, nor ever wish to attend the SCC here in Atlanta. I cannot fathom attending a coming out party for the Celebrity Trans club, and then driving home seeing a “T”girl looking for food or a warm place to stay. Should one go outside of the perimeter it is worse!

    So what? Who cares? I have tried not to focus on individuals, but on those who are speaking for the Transgender. We do nothing for ourselves as a community. We do not gather our resources, or ourselves, as others do. Instead we let others speak for us and vilify us in ways that isolate us from those who can help. We have seen the result of HRC and the political scum and what they have accomplished. So what??? Hey, it a question, that deserves and answer.

  84. Stellewriter says:

    Here in Atlanta this day, “Dr. King” day, the black community (I use black the same way I use white) is coming together to feed, give medical care, and much more to those blacks who are without the barest of resources. Two thirds of Atlanta have combined household incomes less than $25,000 per year. That means that several in the household are working or there is only one income, yet, it is not enough. Atlanta has the largest and most powerful gay community in the US and probably the world. Some of my gay friends are the kindest and most giving people I have ever met. They help and assist each other and provide a safety net for the gay in the perimeter. You do not see homeless gays walking the streets. What you do see are Transgender and others who have “NO” support what so ever on the streets. It is one reason I did not, nor ever wish to attend the SCC here in Atlanta. I cannot fathom attending a coming out party for the Celebrity Trans club, and then driving home seeing a “T”girl looking for food or a warm place to stay. Should one go outside of the perimeter it is worse!

    So what? Who cares? I have tried not to focus on individuals, but on those who are speaking for the Transgender. We do nothing for ourselves as a community. We do not gather our resources, or ourselves, as others do. Instead we let others speak for us and vilify us in ways that isolate us from those who can help. We have seen the result of HRC and the political scum and what they have accomplished. So what??? Hey, it a question, that deserves and answer.

  85. Stellewriter says:

    If you want to do some research, you may find the gay bashing is really about gay thugs bashing transgender’s who are invading their space, or are unwilling to do dirty sex etc. The cases are few where heterosexuals engage in tranny bashing. By profile it is primarily the scum who are insecure in their sexuality who attack the transgender.

    Gay men who have successfully held long term relationships are not part of this profile. It is those who feed off of male relationships and support, to bolster their weeknesses that are the danger. And if you follow the S&M leather crowd you will find that mentality. You will also find it in the redneck bar crowd as well. The guys who hang out together, even though married (unsuccessful and frustrated Marriages),find their fantasies play out in the bottom of a bottle and rough sex. To much of the coward to admit their gay feelings, abusive to women, and murderous to the transgender. I wonder how many here bloging are actually of that ilk, and how many are gay infiltrators? Not paranoid, just cognoscente of the warnings …..

  86. Felix says:

    Amen to that, queen emily! Reading the posts here makes me really glad I live in the UK. Mainstream gay people here may not entirely “understand” us but at least the trans community – about 5,000 of us – pull together. Our local FTM group has members who are high-flying young academics and older guys who are retired and do their gardens. None, not even the “straightest” has any problem being assocated with such a diverse group of individuals – we even took one on his first night out to our Gay Village! The MTFs maintain contact with us and we help each other out whenever we can. People identify as straight, gay, same-sex spouses, bisexual, celibate, men, women, androgynes, you name it. Our SOFFAs have built up support networks of their own. We are activists, support workers, dog-walkers and hand-holders. We visit people we have never met before in hospital and put others up at our homes during Pride. Sorry if I sound like I live in Utopia but I’m surprised and upset by the venom spewed out here.

  87. Susan says:

    Leigh said it exactly right, the homosexual movement could care less about the transgendered, and why should they? Where were the gays – the tens of, if not hundreds of thousands of them – when ENDA came up, certainly not lobbying congress for your inclusive vote. The blogosphere was full of gays asking the question, “Why are the transgender lumped in with us anyhow?”

    What the GLB “says” politically no more represents the feelings of the mainstream gays, in my opinion, any more than what the GLBT “says” OR “does” represents the feelings of pre or postoperative transsexuals.

  88. drakyn says:

    Are you white? Are you straight? Do you have a job and a home? If any of those you are privileged. I was using privilege in the sense of white privilege–not necessarily just class privilege.
    Being white is privileged in American society–just comparing how myself and other white folks are treated compared to my black friends is enough to convince me of that a long time ago.

    And I am out of Michigan; but other people I know aren’t and they can’t get out of there.
    You do realize that it is much harder to get a job nowadays without a degree than it was–even if you have decades of experience.

    I do not insist that trans*folk are queer. I recognize that mainstream society sees us as such. I know that trans*people can be both trans* and queer. But I do not believe that being trans* means that we are queer.

    I am not jeopardizing your marriage. Lack of education on trans*ism, cissexist and heterosexist bigots, and overblown fears of terrorism are threatening your marriage. Why not work to better diversity training and education in workplaces and schools or by writing letters to the folks in congress instead of blaming me and other trans* and/or queer folk.
    And I am only transgender in the sense of it being an umbrella term for all gender variant and trans* folk. I am also transsexual–a man who has a medical problem.

  89. Babs says:

    Hey, Magnificent Monica! oye!!

    Diego has been notified and he will not be alone. We are working to put other transpeople on the platform committee from the state level.

    The DNC is very much aware where we need to be and as Chair of National Stonewall Democrats DNC Relations Committee, I am trying to build political capital and a positive role for transpeople in the Democratic party.

    There are no guarantees in life, however, to quote the lottery folks, “You gotta be in it, to win it!”

    And regarding Monica and myself and the other 5, we walked the walk in 2004, we took a lot of crap from the community, but what we collectively did earned us respect and already in 4 years we are a quantum leap ahead of where we were!

    There are still opportunities for transpeople to get involved and be a delegate to the 2008 Convention. Here is a link for those who are prepared to “walk the walk”, http://www.prideintheparty.org/

    Go for it, girls and boys!

  90. Leigh says:

    you said on your blog

    “Bigots like her make me want to hit someone. they are so blind to their own privilege and instead of focusing on those that actually hurt them, they choose to attack those in similar positions–people who should be their allies!”

    Let me say one more time in case you didn’t read it the first time….. I am NOT and never have been “privileged” ! If being white is priviledged then I must have been standing in the wrong line when they gave out the get out of jail free cards because I didn’t get one. Everything I have, which isn’t much and never has been, I have had to work for. Even now I work every damn day including the weekends and I still can’t call myself even well off. The fact that I had GRS and that others have not is not my fault nor is it my responsability to see that they get it on my tax payments. Its not a priviledge to have had GRS, it was worked for and damned hard too. If you cant get work in Michigan and you want more out of life then you will have to make some hard choices, just as I have had to do.

    I know that your blind to this but I AM focusing on those that can actually hurt me! I am a married woman, one with a transsexual past. You jeopardize my marriage in the eyes of the law when you insist that we are as queer as the rest of you. I am not queer, I am a woman and I have every right to be married to a man as his legal wife. When the transgendered ignore this and worse simply call us all … how did you put it on your blog

    “smug, self-satisfying, classist, racist, sexist, heterosexist “Harry Benjamin Syndrome” transgender folk”

    … you endanger MY rights! However, that doesn’t seem to bother you one bit. Well sir, all the while you endanger me and others like me you can expect that we will speak out against you. We may never win this argument because its for certain there are way more of you than there are of us, but we will continue to fight you until you and GLB quit trying to include us in on something that we have no place in.

  91. Babs says:

    Gays have no interest in trans rights?

    Gimme a break!! Did you see what the 300 some groups did with United ENDA?

    Did you see what Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin did… she will be our future leader in Congress!

    What about the incredible members of Congress like my friend Rush Holt, and Anthony Wiener and Jerrold Nadler and several others who voted angainst the gay only ENDA because it was not transinclusive!

    We are not alone, because many of us our out there walking the walk and buliding political capital every day. We are not there yet, but we are on our way!

    I know HRC is the 400lb gorilla and they are part of the problem, but organizations such as the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, National Stonewall Democrats, PFLAG, PRide at Work, NCTE, NCLR and so many others are our friends. Check out the organizations that were part of United ENDA. Find them and get involved.

    Now I say to you… get real! Quit complaining, take your head out of the sand and work to be part of the solution!

  92. queen emily says:

    Seriously, show some empathy and compassion.

    Other people have different needs than you. Other people having rights does not diminish your own.

  93. queen emily says:

    Seriously, show some empathy and compassion.

    Other people have different needs than you. Other people having rights does not diminish your own.

  94. queen emily says:

    That you have posted that as some kind of clever comeback is really quite a sad reflection on the ethical paucity of your politics.

    FAIL.

  95. queen emily says:

    That you have posted that as some kind of clever comeback is really quite a sad reflection on the ethical paucity of your politics.

    FAIL.

  96. Leigh says:

    Care to borrow some ?

  97. queen emily says:

    “Thats “Nutcases” by the way… what were you thinking?”

    *I* was thinking I don’t have enough sarcasm in my substantial armory for what I shall rather loosely call your “theories.”

    Here’s a tip:

    Civil rights are not handed out like cookies if you just sit quietly enough for them. Grow up.

  98. queen emily says:

    “Thats “Nutcases” by the way… what were you thinking?”

    *I* was thinking I don’t have enough sarcasm in my substantial armory for what I shall rather loosely call your “theories.”

    Here’s a tip:

    Civil rights are not handed out like cookies if you just sit quietly enough for them. Grow up.

  99. drakyn says:

    A strawman argument. A fake argument that no one is arguing, but you bring it up to avoid the real issues. Like on a discussion about feminism, biringing in the man-hating lesbian strawfeminist.

  100. drakyn says:

    Umm.. Trans* activists want anti-disrimination laws that will protect people–not special jobs created specifically for us.
    Anti-discrimination laws at least help–they aren’t perfect but they are better than nothing. Diversity training and education will go even farther, but they work slowly.

    “If they don’t care then they must accept that they will be discriminated against.”
    Why? Why should anyone accept that because they aren’t pretty or not perfect they will get hurt? Why should anyone accept being mistreated?
    Thats what activists fight for. They fight so that their group will not be hurt because they aren’t the perfect little white, rich, straight, gender-normative man or daughter/wife.

    And how are some of us to achieve it? I grew up in MI; there are no jobs. My mom and several cousins have been searching for several years for a non-retail (or in my mom’s case, a non-manual-labor job–she can’t work manual labor anymore) job. And retail jobs don’t pay the rent–not out where I live.

    Do you think I’m for a trans*-only health care plan–or any trans* activist is? Otherwise “I am not for health care that covers only the rich or only the poor or only the transgendered or any other special interest group” is a straw-tranny.

    And because others have it worse I, and other trans* people, should just suffer?
    Every day is like being on the Fire Plane, but I’m not going to say my experiences are any worse or better than any other person who is suffering. And I’m going to fight to help relieve that suffering instead of accepting the racist, classist, hetercentric, sexist, cissexist status quo.

  101. Leigh says:

    Thats “Nutcases” by the way… what were you thinking?

  102. Leigh says:

    um… yeah .. thats about how it was and then the N* moved in …

  103. Susan says:

    What’s a straw tranny?

  104. Susan says:

    What’s a straw tranny?

  105. queen emily says:

    >>>Well, if your queer to begin with then your not likely to have been considered anything else. As a heterosexual I never felt that from mainstream. In fact, I was helped along by mainstream in all phases of my transition including employment. That would not happen today though since in recent years we are all considered queer. That is a direct result of the inclusion of us all in the transgender umbrella under the flag of the GLBT.

    Ah yes, I always forget about that magical, magical time of acceptance before transgendered people ruined it all for HBS people by demanding civil rights.

    Truly it was marvellous. People never ever faced any prejudice, trans people were never subject to violence, doctors always respected people’s identifications, and everyone played nice under the medical model and drank tea and held pinky fingers.

    But then came the dread queers and it was ALL OVER. Woe! Calamity! Etc!

  106. queen emily says:

    >>>Well, if your queer to begin with then your not likely to have been considered anything else. As a heterosexual I never felt that from mainstream. In fact, I was helped along by mainstream in all phases of my transition including employment. That would not happen today though since in recent years we are all considered queer. That is a direct result of the inclusion of us all in the transgender umbrella under the flag of the GLBT.

    Ah yes, I always forget about that magical, magical time of acceptance before transgendered people ruined it all for HBS people by demanding civil rights.

    Truly it was marvellous. People never ever faced any prejudice, trans people were never subject to violence, doctors always respected people’s identifications, and everyone played nice under the medical model and drank tea and held pinky fingers.

    But then came the dread queers and it was ALL OVER. Woe! Calamity! Etc!

  107. Leigh says:

    “Please prove, don’t just state, that transsexuals are sometmes seen as queer as a direct result of working with queer activists.”

    I cannot, no more than you can prove they are not. My personal belief is that if you sleep with wolves you may just be a wolf. Logically speaking most other folk will think that too.

    “I don’t want special laws. I want for people to only be fired either when the company needs to get rid of employees or when that specific person sucks at their job. Not because someone higher up thinks you’re perverted or because they’re a bigot.”

    I don’t either, but thats not what trans activists are asking for.

    “And do you really think that queer folk are not subject t housing and employment discrimination? Moreover, at least queer folk can hide it–transitioning trans*folk can’t generally (and if your state doesn’t allow you to change your birth certificate, well you are shit out of luck until those laws are changed).”

    Absolutly they are, as are other non gender queer people. Anti discrimination laws won’t change that. Its already illegal to discriminate on many things and people still do it. There are always ways.

    “Okay, so you shouldn’t transition because there might be consequences, but to be a true transsexual you must transition.”

    No thats not what I said. I said people that transition should be ready willing and able to accept the consequences. That includes the rich and the poor alike.

    “Why should they have to pass perfectly?”

    They don’t … Personally I don’t care if they do or not but THEY should care if they don’t want to be discriminated against. If they don’t care then they must accept that they will be discriminated against.

    “Nowadays, it is very hard for many people to make enough money to survive at all; especially if their parents were poor, they are not white, suffering from depression (often caused by not transitioning), or their family doesn’t support them. Transition should not be restricted to rich white male-assigned people. “

    Yes it is .. why add to the problem by transitioning ? Transition is expensive, what can I tell you ? It was expensive for me too. I was not born to rich parents and I didn’t even go to college and I don’t have rich friends. I landed in the United States in 1978 with nothing but a handful of dreams and a one way ticket. I worked .. I worked and I planned and I made it happen in less than 7 years. If you want something bad enough you will achieve it.

    “Why isn’t it society/government’s job to give needed medical care to those who can’t afford it? Especially if many will be able to pull themselves out of depression if they have that medical care.”

    I am all for UNIVERSAL health care .. I am not for health care that covers only the rich or only the poor or only the transgendered or any other special interest group.

    “I dare you to go into a larger trans* forum and say that. I just dare you (ftm on LJ will eat you alive for saying that!)”

    I have done and they do! I still stand by the statement!

    “Suffering doesn’t make you a better person you know. And no one should have to suffer to get what they need in life. I’m sorry that you think you need to suffer to get necessities, but I don’t.”

    Neither does pandering. Do you really think that you suffer in the United States ? Life isn’t easy I will grant you but compared to most places on the planet you don’t know what suffering is.

  108. Leigh says:

    “Please prove, don’t just state, that transsexuals are sometmes seen as queer as a direct result of working with queer activists.”

    I cannot, no more than you can prove they are not. My personal belief is that if you sleep with wolves you may just be a wolf. Logically speaking most other folk will think that too.

    “I don’t want special laws. I want for people to only be fired either when the company needs to get rid of employees or when that specific person sucks at their job. Not because someone higher up thinks you’re perverted or because they’re a bigot.”

    I don’t either, but thats not what trans activists are asking for.

    “And do you really think that queer folk are not subject t housing and employment discrimination? Moreover, at least queer folk can hide it–transitioning trans*folk can’t generally (and if your state doesn’t allow you to change your birth certificate, well you are shit out of luck until those laws are changed).”

    Absolutly they are, as are other non gender queer people. Anti discrimination laws won’t change that. Its already illegal to discriminate on many things and people still do it. There are always ways.

    “Okay, so you shouldn’t transition because there might be consequences, but to be a true transsexual you must transition.”

    No thats not what I said. I said people that transition should be ready willing and able to accept the consequences. That includes the rich and the poor alike.

    “Why should they have to pass perfectly?”

    They don’t … Personally I don’t care if they do or not but THEY should care if they don’t want to be discriminated against. If they don’t care then they must accept that they will be discriminated against.

    “Nowadays, it is very hard for many people to make enough money to survive at all; especially if their parents were poor, they are not white, suffering from depression (often caused by not transitioning), or their family doesn’t support them. Transition should not be restricted to rich white male-assigned people. “

    Yes it is .. why add to the problem by transitioning ? Transition is expensive, what can I tell you ? It was expensive for me too. I was not born to rich parents and I didn’t even go to college and I don’t have rich friends. I landed in the United States in 1978 with nothing but a handful of dreams and a one way ticket. I worked .. I worked and I planned and I made it happen in less than 7 years. If you want something bad enough you will achieve it.

    “Why isn’t it society/government’s job to give needed medical care to those who can’t afford it? Especially if many will be able to pull themselves out of depression if they have that medical care.”

    I am all for UNIVERSAL health care .. I am not for health care that covers only the rich or only the poor or only the transgendered or any other special interest group.

    “I dare you to go into a larger trans* forum and say that. I just dare you (ftm on LJ will eat you alive for saying that!)”

    I have done and they do! I still stand by the statement!

    “Suffering doesn’t make you a better person you know. And no one should have to suffer to get what they need in life. I’m sorry that you think you need to suffer to get necessities, but I don’t.”

    Neither does pandering. Do you really think that you suffer in the United States ? Life isn’t easy I will grant you but compared to most places on the planet you don’t know what suffering is.

  109. MonicaH says:

    Speaking as one of the 2004 “Magnificent Seven,” (sorry, but I just couldn’t resist) having anyone on the Platform Committee is infinately better than “zero.” It doesn’t matter what Diego’s affiliations are, I’m sure that this is a major responsibility that he won’t take lightly. Diego is not a silent individual.

    We have to stop the bickering and move forward. Those trans people involved in the DNC will probably help Diego prepare for this. The rest of us will have to wait and see how it plays out. All this doom and gloom supposition is not very helpful and wastes a lot of time and energy.

  110. MonicaH says:

    Speaking as one of the 2004 “Magnificent Seven,” (sorry, but I just couldn’t resist) having anyone on the Platform Committee is infinately better than “zero.” It doesn’t matter what Diego’s affiliations are, I’m sure that this is a major responsibility that he won’t take lightly. Diego is not a silent individual.

    We have to stop the bickering and move forward. Those trans people involved in the DNC will probably help Diego prepare for this. The rest of us will have to wait and see how it plays out. All this doom and gloom supposition is not very helpful and wastes a lot of time and energy.

  111. drakyn says:

    Many did see stealth straight trans*women and trans*men as perverts and queers too you know–maybe even more than gay trans*folk since, unless you’ve partnered with another trans*person, you are the same assigned-sex as your partner.
    (PS: Pro grammar tip, your is different from you’re /nitpicking about my pet peeve)

    Please prove, don’t just state, that transsexuals are sometmes seen as queer as a direct result of working with queer activists.

    I don’t want special laws. I want for people to only be fired either when the company needs to get rid of employees or when that specific person sucks at their job. Not because someone higher up thinks you’re perverted or because they’re a bigot.
    Same with housing.
    And actually, there are activists trying to get the government to create jobs and affordable housing–ever been to Michigan or Chicago? I’ve seen TV shows on the housing activists in Chicago and I live in Michigan and I know some people working to get the government to create jobs or at least curb the trend of sending jobs overseas.

    And do you really think that queer folk are not subject t housing and employment discrimination? Moreover, at least queer folk can hide it–transitioning trans*folk can’t generally (and if your state doesn’t allow you to change your birth certificate, well you are shit out of luck until those laws are changed).

    If you cant make it in society because you made the decision to transition knowing full well the consequences you faced, why should the rest of society make a special allotment for you to make up for your short fallings?
    Okay, so you shouldn’t transition because there might be consequences, but to be a true transsexual you must transition. This makes perfect sense; we have always been a war with Oceania!

    Why should they have to pass perfectly? Why can only the rich transition? Why should the rich be the only ones who are saved from a lifetime of pain and suffering?
    How is it a kid’s fault if his or her parents decide to kick them out if they are not or too feminine? How is it anyone’s fault that the people they trusted and thought would be supportive instead stab them in the back?

    Nowadays, it is very hard for many people to make enough money to survive at all; especially if their parents were poor, they are not white, suffering from depression (often caused by not transitioning), or their family doesn’t support them.
    Transition should not be restricted to rich white male-assigned people.

    Why isn’t it society/government’s job to give needed medical care to those who can’t afford it? Especially if many will be able to pull themselves out of depression if they have that medical care.

    Please, don’t tell me about those that “Have to transition or commit suicide” Its pure drama.
    I dare you to go into a larger trans* forum and say that. I just dare you (ftm on LJ will eat you alive for saying that!)

    Suffering doesn’t make you a better person you know. And no one should have to suffer to get what they need in life. I’m sorry that you think you need to suffer to get necessities, but I don’t.

  112. Val says:

    > The vast majority of them have transitioned and moved quietly into society without any help from anyone.

    Care to substantiate that?

    Doesn’t matter, really… it’s just another infantile overgeneralization.

    What do you consider “help”? Access to psychological and surgical services, as you had? A little peer support, as you have now, despite your dishonest assertion that real transsexuals don’t have support groups?

    I love the other little bit of hypocrisy as well: “victimhood” is bad, but “having it tough” is apparently a necessary indicator of authenticity. Nice way to set it up, so that no matter what one says about their transition, you can claim that it’s insufficient or fraudulent.

    Play another note on that horn of yours, Doc Severinsen. Not everyone who doesn’t have exactly your experience, your politics, or your weird exhibitionism is “fake.”

  113. Leigh says:

    “If they were, we wouldn’t have about 50% of the population covered by transgender-protective anti-discrimination laws and our rights wouldn’t regularly (credibly) poll at 60-70% support”

    Where are the facts and who is being polled?

    You may see the media portrayal as positive, I don’t. All I see are men and women talking about how its going to be hard on their families, their wives and children. Could you imagine having a husband do that to you and your kids? Its not like they signed up for this when they married them. Do you suppose that the folks sitting at home watching the show feel sorry for the poor transgendered husband or for the wife and kids? That sort of publicity is negative.

    You see the sterotypical “transformation”, the application of makeup and forms and the never to be missed pictures of their former “GI” self. No self respecting transsexuals go on these shows and allow their lives to be exploited.

    Have you ever actually tried to bring a lawsuit based on what you think might be discrimination? Have you ever talked to a lawyer about the chances of actually winning such a lawsuit are ? You would be better advised to take the money and spend it on surgery to help you pass better than to even contemplate winning any of these claims. So much for laws.

  114. Leigh says:

    “You mean like your genitals?”

    …… If the shoe fits!

  115. Leigh says:

    And do you suppose the back room gay militants, and the likes of Barney Frank friend’s have been orchestrating this public view?

    Yes I do….. The gays have no interest in trans-anything rights. The gays will use the trans folk to show society what they are not. In the end analysis the tranny’s will become like the militant wing of a para military organisation while the gays themselves will be seen as moderates.

    In the final play the gays will sell out the tranny’s for a piece of the mainstream action.

  116. Leigh says:

    And do you suppose the back room gay militants, and the likes of Barney Frank friend’s have been orchestrating this public view?

    Yes I do….. The gays have no interest in trans-anything rights. The gays will use the trans folk to show society what they are not. In the end analysis the tranny’s will become like the militant wing of a para military organisation while the gays themselves will be seen as moderates.

    In the final play the gays will sell out the tranny’s for a piece of the mainstream action.

  117. Leigh says:

    Mainstream society already saw us as freaks and fags and dykes way before he first trans* activists joined with the first queer activists–we were all perverts together you know.

    Well, if your queer to begin with then your not likely to have been considered anything else. As a heterosexual I never felt that from mainstream. In fact, I was helped along by mainstream in all phases of my transition including employment. That would not happen today though since in recent years we are all considered queer. That is a direct result of the inclusion of us all in the transgender umbrella under the flag of the GLBT.

    “Though I do hope that they focus on the laws that will help the poorest of us first–employment and housing would be nice”

    Now why on earth should you want the United States or any other country for that matter to treat you any different than anyone else? Gays are employed and live everywhere across this nation. In fact some of the richest men and women on the planet are gay and lesbian. Seems like they didn’t need a special law to help them be who they are. Why do the transgendered need this when there are plenty of non-trans folk that cant get the same thing. You don’t see them out lobbying congress for the right to work and the right to have a home. Why are the gender queers so special? If you cant make it in society because you made the decision to transition knowing full well the consequences you faced, why should the rest of society make a special allotment for you to make up for your short fallings?

    Transsexuals have been transitioning and having surgery for the past 60 years. The vast majority of them have transitioned and moved quietly into society without any help from anyone. They took the risks and lived with the consequences and when the going got tough they overcame. If someone decides to try to transition with no money or a low paying job or simply because they will have to commit suicide if they don’t transition, then they have to face the consequence of that. If they are so “female inside” yet they have little chance of even remotely assimilating as a woman yet they still decide to transition, why should employers be forced to hire them? If a person goes for a job anywhere they normally try to look their best for an interview. They don’t simply assume that an employer is going to overlook their appearance. Why should it be any different for transgenders that look hideous in their chosen gender mode? Hell, even gay owned businesses will not hire obvious trannys. Employment discrimination is not exclusive to mainstream.

    The problem here is that the transgenders seem to feel that they are the victims. Instead of getting their act together they hang out on the internet and feel empowered by their “union”. Instead of looking at the way the real world works they yell and scream that they are being singled out. Its a victim mentality instead of a help yourself mentality. Those of us that have been successful at transition have either gotten their act together before jumping into the fire or had enough resources, smarts and inner fortitude to see it through transition. We knew it was financial suicide to embark on a journey with no way of reaching the goal.

    Please, don’t tell me about those that “Have to transition or commit suicide” Its pure drama. If someone is suicidal about transition they have more problems than gender dysphoria. They need to sort those problems out first. Transition is not going to help them.

    Transition is tough. It SHOULD be tough. It is the fire that will burn the fakers and temper the needy. It should make you stronger and make you whole and make you self reliant. If it doesn’t then you did something wrong.

  118. Stellewriter says:

    Very Good Liegh! You Have stated it well!

    And do you suppose the back room gay militants, and the likes of Barney Frank friend’s have been orchestrating this public view? Dressed up like an indians and then raiding the wagon train, later to accuse the indians of baberism. It is a diversion tactic, and it is working well!

  119. Stellewriter says:

    Gee, Diversity! I only wanted to express what it seemed nobody had the guts to say. Fine, I said it! If I am wrong, that’s fine too, but then please let us know what we can do to make change? For the path as it has been walked so far has not produced the results needed.

    As for therapy? Well, one of my therapists recommended that after my accomplishing transition, I should move on leaving the transgender behind. The suggestion was to get a real life. That I have done! However, I am reminded of those who may never have that opportunity. Which I guess is in fact a matter of negativity. It hurts to see most transgender unable to exist freely, and understand why many who can fade into the woodwork. Several of my friends who pass well, have all said what my good therapist had recommended. They may be right? Unless you are a celebrity in the Trans world of events, or are connected with some position of credibility, being out is a definate hazard. For sure it is not safe to speak out among the Trans-Community. Not at all! We act like a band of canables in the “Lord of the Flies.” It is what the HRC and Barney had counted on, and it worked.

    I suppose that it is easier to continue the same dance and ineffective politics for another forty years? As my sons would say, “What – Ever!” which is what they said to me when I told them I was transitioning. So, let me share, a personal “what ever”,…. The laws and culture of this society, those who hate us, and those who use us, will continue to do “What Ever” they want as long as we let them.

    As for me? I usually walk away from the stupid, aoiding bigots and ass holes, or sometimes if necessary viciously over some.

    Back to the question: “Are We ready for prime time?”

    I ask, what do you me “WE?”

  120. Val says:

    > If you wear it like a badge of honor don’t expect the world to honor you.

    You mean like your genitals?

  121. drakyn says:

    You are the ones that linked it to sex by denying that transsexualism is a medically defined and well documented human condition.
    Holy straw-tranny batman!

    Plenty of non-transsexual trans*folk and transsexual folks who are fine with joining politically with queer folks realize that some forms of trans*ism are medical issues. (HI!)

    Mainstream society already saw us as freaks and fags and dykes way before he first trans* activists joined with the first queer activists–we were all perverts together you know.

    We had a lot of setbacks within queer and feminist groups, but we are educating–remember, queer folks are usually just as ignorant about gender issues as straight folks.
    Hell, even many trans*folk are ignorant at first.

    As an American transsexual man, I hope that we trans*folks get on the radar.
    I hope that our politicians are educated about us (in all our glorious variety) and choose to support laws that will help as many of as as possible. Though I do hope that they focus on the laws that will help the poorest of us first–employment and housing would be nice (personally, I hope they throw in a little health care for kids and poor folk too–but that isn’t specific to trans*folk).

  122. Rebecca Juro says:

    Oh yeah, Morocco, great example…why not just use Iraq or Saudi Arabia?

    Please, let’s at least stick to reality here. I’d venture to say that most here don’t live in Morocco…

    Personally, I don’t think the American public is that stupid anymore. If they were, we wouldn’t have about 50% of the population covered by transgender-protective anti-discrimination laws and our rights wouldn’t regularly (credibly) poll at 60-70% support. We also wouldn’t be being portrayed positively in the media as often as we are these days.

    It’s not Joe Q. Public that’s really the biggest problem these days in most of the country, especially at the federal level, it’s Joe and Jane Q. Politician.

  123. Leigh says:

    Your not .. but they think you are and to them there is no difference.

  124. Leigh says:

    What do transgender rights have to do with sex?

    I am glad you asked …

    Do you really think that Joe Q Public out there really knows or cares to know the difference? You are the ones that linked it to sex by denying that transsexualism is a medically defined and well documented human condition. You linked it to the GLB and got your just rewards.

    The GLBT is not seen as a homosexual and gender organization by society but purely a homosexual one. Issues raised or supported by the GLBT which address homosexual concerns are rightly seen by society as part of the homosexual agenda. On the other hand, a transgender centered issue raised or supported by the GLBT is not seen by society as gender related at all…it is seen as just another issue related to homosexuality. The GLB discuss purely GLB issues all the time without referring to any transgender association. However, the transgendered don’t seem to be able to breathe without referring to their GLBT association.

    Google “transsexual” and what result do you get ? Hot transsexual chicks ready to satisfy your sexual appetite. You may not see it that way but you don’t count since the heterosexuals DO see it that way. Gone is the medical condition, all that society see’s is homo’s in dresses. In point of fact, thats what the Gays see too for the most part.

    Acceptable public behaviour demands that individuals do not bring a sexual act into the public eye. The public make no distinction between a man dressing as a woman and a man kissing his boyfriend at the mall. To them its all the same. In point of fact its also the same in other countries. This just in from Morocco ….

    “A Moroccan appeal court on Tuesday upheld the convictions of six men jailed for homosexual acts after video images of a man dressed as a woman dancing at a party sparked street protests and a police investigation, lawyers said.”

    So there you have it. If you wear it like a badge of honor don’t expect the world to honor you.

  125. Leigh says:

    What do transgender rights have to do with sex?

    I am glad you asked …

    Do you really think that Joe Q Public out there really knows or cares to know the difference? You are the ones that linked it to sex by denying that transsexualism is a medically defined and well documented human condition. You linked it to the GLB and got your just rewards.

    The GLBT is not seen as a homosexual and gender organization by society but purely a homosexual one. Issues raised or supported by the GLBT which address homosexual concerns are rightly seen by society as part of the homosexual agenda. On the other hand, a transgender centered issue raised or supported by the GLBT is not seen by society as gender related at all…it is seen as just another issue related to homosexuality. The GLB discuss purely GLB issues all the time without referring to any transgender association. However, the transgendered don’t seem to be able to breathe without referring to their GLBT association.

    Google “transsexual” and what result do you get ? Hot transsexual chicks ready to satisfy your sexual appetite. You may not see it that way but you don’t count since the heterosexuals DO see it that way. Gone is the medical condition, all that society see’s is homo’s in dresses. In point of fact, thats what the Gays see too for the most part.

    Acceptable public behaviour demands that individuals do not bring a sexual act into the public eye. The public make no distinction between a man dressing as a woman and a man kissing his boyfriend at the mall. To them its all the same. In point of fact its also the same in other countries. This just in from Morocco ….

    “A Moroccan appeal court on Tuesday upheld the convictions of six men jailed for homosexual acts after video images of a man dressed as a woman dancing at a party sparked street protests and a police investigation, lawyers said.”

    So there you have it. If you wear it like a badge of honor don’t expect the world to honor you.

  126. Rory says:

    Geeze Louise!! If things are really as hopeless as you make out, why bother try at all? Why even transition? You need to get a grip – seriously.

    That level of negativity is almost as pernicious as anything else our enemies could ever do to us.

    Just remember the over 300 organizations supporting us in United ENDA. And please get some therapy.

  127. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “cos in case you didn’t realise it the vast majority of folks have values about what is acceptable public behaviour and especially when it comes to sex most don’t appreciate it being forced down their throats!”

    What do transgender rights have to do with sex? For that matter, what do gay rights have to do with sex as well? I don’t know any gay or transgender people who are clamoring for the “right” to have sex in public. So when you refer to “acceptable public behavior, just what the heck are you talking about?

    We transsexuls and gays just want the right to live our lives in peace, with the same benefits and responsibilities that everyone else has.

  128. Wolfgang Eli says:

    Leigh wrote, “cos in case you didn’t realise it the vast majority of folks have values about what is acceptable public behaviour and especially when it comes to sex most don’t appreciate it being forced down their throats!”

    What do transgender rights have to do with sex? For that matter, what do gay rights have to do with sex as well? I don’t know any gay or transgender people who are clamoring for the “right” to have sex in public. So when you refer to “acceptable public behavior, just what the heck are you talking about?

    We transsexuls and gays just want the right to live our lives in peace, with the same benefits and responsibilities that everyone else has.

  129. Samantha Davis says:

    How are we shoving our sex lives down people’s throats?

  130. Babs says:

    We are not alone! (or at least those of us who are fighting , educating, networking, joining, and trying to improve ourselves with positive actions and not just angry words!

    Granted it is not an easy process, it is time consuming and perhaps entails a culture change! But the question we must ask ourselves is, “Do we want to keep and /or exacerbate the problem, or be part of the solution?”

  131. Leigh says:

    Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with S&M folks walking their slaves through the mall

    …but of course you wouldn’t dear …

  132. Rebecca Juro says:

    Where did we keep Mom? In a jar? The garage?

    Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with S&M folks walking their slaves through the mall…it’s the prudes and the Bible-thumpers who really have the issues there. Going to work with whips and chains makes no sense, for the same reason going to work with sporting equipment makes no sense.

    We don’t need to get over ourselves…the bigots do.

  133. Rebecca Juro says:

    Where did we keep Mom? In a jar? The garage?

    Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with S&M folks walking their slaves through the mall…it’s the prudes and the Bible-thumpers who really have the issues there. Going to work with whips and chains makes no sense, for the same reason going to work with sporting equipment makes no sense.

    We don’t need to get over ourselves…the bigots do.

  134. Leigh says:

    Damn I wish the rhetoric would go away!

    What do you thing we did before the tranny hoards started yelling for equal rights and representation?

    We kept Mom .. thats what we did. We didn’t go around wearing our afflictions on our sleeve like a badge of honor and expecting the world to give up their values for ours. Yes ! Values .. cos in case you didn’t realise it the vast majority of folks have values about what is acceptable public behaviour and especially when it comes to sex most don’t appreciate it being forced down their throats!

    Would it be ok with you if the sado masochists could walk their slaves through a mall, dressed in black leather with the slave tethered to a rope? Hell why not .. S&M folks have to shop too!

    How about letting them come to work with a sack full of whips and chains so they can feel whole ?

    Ya’ll need to get over yourselves, like THATS gonna happen !

  135. Leigh says:

    Damn I wish the rhetoric would go away!

    What do you thing we did before the tranny hoards started yelling for equal rights and representation?

    We kept Mom .. thats what we did. We didn’t go around wearing our afflictions on our sleeve like a badge of honor and expecting the world to give up their values for ours. Yes ! Values .. cos in case you didn’t realise it the vast majority of folks have values about what is acceptable public behaviour and especially when it comes to sex most don’t appreciate it being forced down their throats!

    Would it be ok with you if the sado masochists could walk their slaves through a mall, dressed in black leather with the slave tethered to a rope? Hell why not .. S&M folks have to shop too!

    How about letting them come to work with a sack full of whips and chains so they can feel whole ?

    Ya’ll need to get over yourselves, like THATS gonna happen !

  136. Stellewriter says:

    Prime time ???

    It has already been questioned as to what that means?

    1.) Prime time is a resolve that what ever we do, we will not go away.

    2.) We will talk, and if you cannot hear we will get louder, but we will not go away.

    3.) If you shove us we will shove back, and harder, but we will not go away.

    4.) If we are blocked from equality, we will deny access to you as well, but we will not go away.

    5.) We will escalate and take ever more bold steps to be treated equal, but “WE WILL NOT GO AWAY!”

  137. Stellewriter says:

    I will add that not only are we alone, but our voicings are ignored outside of our own circles. Who reads this site? And if someone outside did, would they have the freedom to run with it on a national media exchange? Or would it be blocked by the powers to be and the elitist gay enclave whom have infiltrated the media itself? We are ALONE!

  138. Stellewriter says:

    Can you hear the sirens?

    Something we do not seem to get is it that as far as politics go we are not even on the radar. The gay elite figured out a long time ago that to have any weight they would need a lot of money, a place in corporate power, and strong media influence. All of this we have NONE!

    We will not garner any relevant backing until we are either so strong a lobby that we cannot be ignored, or we are so much of an annoyance that they will do anything to get rid of us.

    When the black rights movement was in full swing it was the sympathetic and good whites that marched along side of the blacks that the media made news print about. It was the scenes of bigoted southern white cops clubbing Yankee white girls that raged in the public eye. It was then that the race war moved into the courts and the isle of Congress. So who will march in the streets to be clubbed along with us? Who will place their lives and fortune on our behalf? Right!

    We are alone!

    We are in battle literally for our lives. We are in battle not to win some political platform recognition that will be written over or ignored after the votes are in. We are in battle for our lives!

    We are opposed by the drug and chemical companies and a history of ongoing chromosomal damage to the unborn. We are opposed by the insurance and medical community for the expense and liability they face for years of malpractice and denial of care. We are opposed by the public for our threat to their small and frozen world, which has not only denied their self imposed obligation to the tenants of this republic, and their convictions, but to the powers they answer.

    We are alone! We are in battle for our lives! We are alone! We are in battle for the lives of those who follow, and at this moment are being flooded and drowned in a swamp of endocrine blocking chemicals and drugs. We are alone in the battle to simply live in the day light and have the same rights that others take for granted. We are alone! We are in a battle for children who will never know what it is to be loved for who they are. We are alone!

    Political platforms, elitist gay rights, the American public at large??? Not one of the candidates, or any of their coalitions could give a flying fuck as to our welfare. Not one! If one had they would have been on the steps of the Capital screaming their lungs out. If anyone cared, we would be employed and have the medical access we need. (I am not ignoring the very few who, God bless, are helping.) we are alone and in a battle!

    So the question stands… “Are we ready for prime time?”

    Are we ready to lie down in the streets and be arrested? Because we have no representation or equality? Are we ready to storm hospitals and corporations to be arrested. Because we are denied access and equality of employment? Are we willing to fill police stations and be arrested? Because they maltreat and abuse the transgender? Are we willing to suffer the abuse, get up, and come back the very next day to do it again? Well?

    We are we ready for prime time? ….. Are “YOU” ready for prime time?

    Stellewriter.blogspot.com

  139. Stellewriter says:

    Can you hear the sirens?

    Something we do not seem to get is it that as far as politics go we are not even on the radar. The gay elite figured out a long time ago that to have any weight they would need a lot of money, a place in corporate power, and strong media influence. All of this we have NONE!

    We will not garner any relevant backing until we are either so strong a lobby that we cannot be ignored, or we are so much of an annoyance that they will do anything to get rid of us.

    When the black rights movement was in full swing it was the sympathetic and good whites that marched along side of the blacks that the media made news print about. It was the scenes of bigoted southern white cops clubbing Yankee white girls that raged in the public eye. It was then that the race war moved into the courts and the isle of Congress. So who will march in the streets to be clubbed along with us? Who will place their lives and fortune on our behalf? Right!

    We are alone!

    We are in battle literally for our lives. We are in battle not to win some political platform recognition that will be written over or ignored after the votes are in. We are in battle for our lives!

    We are opposed by the drug and chemical companies and a history of ongoing chromosomal damage to the unborn. We are opposed by the insurance and medical community for the expense and liability they face for years of malpractice and denial of care. We are opposed by the public for our threat to their small and frozen world, which has not only denied their self imposed obligation to the tenants of this republic, and their convictions, but to the powers they answer.

    We are alone! We are in battle for our lives! We are alone! We are in battle for the lives of those who follow, and at this moment are being flooded and drowned in a swamp of endocrine blocking chemicals and drugs. We are alone in the battle to simply live in the day light and have the same rights that others take for granted. We are alone! We are in a battle for children who will never know what it is to be loved for who they are. We are alone!

    Political platforms, elitist gay rights, the American public at large??? Not one of the candidates, or any of their coalitions could give a flying fuck as to our welfare. Not one! If one had they would have been on the steps of the Capital screaming their lungs out. If anyone cared, we would be employed and have the medical access we need. (I am not ignoring the very few who, God bless, are helping.) we are alone and in a battle!

    So the question stands… “Are we ready for prime time?”

    Are we ready to lie down in the streets and be arrested? Because we have no representation or equality? Are we ready to storm hospitals and corporations to be arrested. Because we are denied access and equality of employment? Are we willing to fill police stations and be arrested? Because they maltreat and abuse the transgender? Are we willing to suffer the abuse, get up, and come back the very next day to do it again? Well?

    We are we ready for prime time? ….. Are “YOU” ready for prime time?

    Stellewriter.blogspot.com

  140. Babs says:

    Becky and Polar Bear, you each make valid comments. Yes, the appointment on the platform committee is “only” symbolic. Diego is on HRC’s steering committee and several LGB and T Democrats have questioned his being “picked” over many active transgender Democrats.(or even being picked at all)

    Regardless, that symbol, that window dressing makes a strong statement that is a quantum leap over the 2004 scenario.

    The eventual nominee will have in fact the most say over the drafting of the platform. Sen Clinton has 4 active transpeople on her National LGBT Steering Committee who were sought out by the Clinton campaign. I beleive Obama has one. This, again, is in stark contrast to 2004, when the Kerry campaign reluctantly threw us a “bone” in appointing Mara to the Kerry steering Committee.

    If Clinton is the nominee, the fact that they actively sought transgender support will speak louder than anything previously done.

  141. Babs says:

    Becky and Polar Bear, you each make valid comments. Yes, the appointment on the platform committee is “only” symbolic. Diego is on HRC’s steering committee and several LGB and T Democrats have questioned his being “picked” over many active transgender Democrats.(or even being picked at all)

    Regardless, that symbol, that window dressing makes a strong statement that is a quantum leap over the 2004 scenario.

    The eventual nominee will have in fact the most say over the drafting of the platform. Sen Clinton has 4 active transpeople on her National LGBT Steering Committee who were sought out by the Clinton campaign. I beleive Obama has one. This, again, is in stark contrast to 2004, when the Kerry campaign reluctantly threw us a “bone” in appointing Mara to the Kerry steering Committee.

    If Clinton is the nominee, the fact that they actively sought transgender support will speak louder than anything previously done.

  142. Polar Bear says:

    Isn’t Diego on the Massachusetts HRC steering committee? I’ve heard he’s good, but I’d sure feel a lot better if there was someone else who doesn’t have HRC ties.

  143. Polar Bear says:

    Isn’t Diego on the Massachusetts HRC steering committee? I’ve heard he’s good, but I’d sure feel a lot better if there was someone else who doesn’t have HRC ties.

  144. Rebecca Juro says:

    So, now the DNC position on transpeople has evolved from almost completely ignoring us to one of PC tokenism?

    Color me unimpressed.

    The proof of change, if it is to come, will be in the platform itself. Anything less isn’t worthy support or commendation.

    Let’s see the platform include support for an inclusive ENDA. That’ll impress me, but I won’t be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

  145. Rebecca Juro says:

    So, now the DNC position on transpeople has evolved from almost completely ignoring us to one of PC tokenism?

    Color me unimpressed.

    The proof of change, if it is to come, will be in the platform itself. Anything less isn’t worthy support or commendation.

    Let’s see the platform include support for an inclusive ENDA. That’ll impress me, but I won’t be holding my breath waiting for it to happen.